Israel-Palestine flame thread

[Razgovory]

This isn't a deal breaker for you because your interests are directly tired to Ukraine.  You tolerate it, you support it, because the Russian tanks are going toward you.  How many Russian civilian deaths are acceptable to preserve Europe?  50k?  100K?  At what point would you say "fuck it, let the Russian overrun all of Europe!  We deserve it!".

You keep coming back to the Azov Brigade, using material that is over a decade old at this point.  While there are probably still some neo-Nazis in the brigade, it is not a neo-Nazi unit, and has had the support of Ukrainian Jewish groups and a Jewish billionaire for years.  You are almost at the level of Russian propaganda on this right now.

As to the broader issue...

One, Zoupa is Canadian.  He doesn't have to worry about Russian tanks overrunning his home, unless the US invasion of Canada actually happens and Daddy Putin helps.

Two, in three years of open war Ukraine has killed roughly 1,000 Russian civilians, despite their attacks on Russian infrastructure and on military targets in populated areas.  Sure, if they had more capability to perform these strikes the casualty numbers would be higher, but they still strike with precision and minimal collateral damage.

Three, you are uncharitably oversimplifying the situation.  Nobody is absolving Ukraine of any and all actions it takes just because they're fighting the Russians.  If Ukraine was hitting Russian targets without care, and needlessly killing Russian civilians in the process, they would be getting shit, too.

Four, you seem to be trying really hard to paint a picture of collective guilt for all Palestinians, while rejecting it for Americans.  You can't highlight instances of Palestinians Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Palestinians any more than you can highlight Americans Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Americans.

Also, the quotes you posted prove that Zoupa did not demand anything.  He just indicated that violence needed to be on the table, to be wielded at some point if lesser means failed.

Where have I said that all Palestinians Palestinians are guilty?  Where have I said that indiscriminately killing Muslims isn't bad?  Please show me.  I brought up the Azov brigade because it is brought up by Ukraine skeptics, who like the antizionists point to far-right elements on the good guys side to diminish support for a democratic state fighting fascists.  Bringing up the Azov brigade makes you sound like Russian propaganda, that is true.  Who's propaganda does going on about how bad the Israelis are sound like?  The war in Ukraine has cost few Russian civilians because it has been fought mainly in Ukraine and because the Russians don't fight from hospitals and schools for the most part.  If the civilian casualties were higher it wouldn't matter one wit.  Europe wouldn't just roll over let the Russians have what they want because of bad behavior on the part of Ukraine.  When we fought ISIS many, many civilians died.  The Kurds estimated 40k in Mosul alone.  At no point did the world throw up their hands and say "Well, let ISIS win, it's better than civilian deaths." I doubt the Kurds were that scrupulous with ROE.  The truth is we didn't care.  We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, who tells me that they would prefer rockets fall on their home and kill their family rather than kill enemy civilians is a liar or a lunatic. Any political leader, President Zelenesky, President Trump, President Obama, or President Abe Lincoln would make the destruction of those rocket sites the main priority.  And if the enemy fired them from schools or hospitals or apartment buildings those structures would be destroyed.

[grumbler]

(snip) The truth is we didn't care.  We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.

The fact that you believe that the ends justify the means doesn't signify anything for anyone but you.

And don't argue that your statement doesn't equal "the ends justify the means," because that argument will just make you look like a cowardly weasel.

[Razgovory]

(snip) The truth is we didn't care.  We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.

The fact that you believe that the ends justify the means doesn't signify anything for anyone but you.

And don't argue that your statement doesn't equal "the ends justify the means," because that argument will just make you look like a cowardly weasel.

Okay, why did you look the other way?  I don't remember one post on this forum about the concern that the Iraqis killed too many civilians taking Mosul.  Nobody said we need to stop bombing of Raqqa, out of concern for civilian casualties.  Every poster here can post why they didn't feel it wasn't important to object to humanitarian catastrophe we were contributing to in the war against ISIS.

[grumbler]

(snip) The truth is we didn't care.  We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.

The fact that you believe that the ends justify the means doesn't signify anything for anyone but you.

And don't argue that your statement doesn't equal "the ends justify the means," because that argument will just make you look like a cowardly weasel.

Okay, why did you look the other way?  I don't remember one post on this forum about the concern that the Iraqis killed too many civilians taking Mosul.  Nobody said we need to stop bombing of Raqqa, out of concern for civilian casualties.  Every poster here can post why they didn't feel it wasn't important to object to humanitarian catastrophe we were contributing to in the war against ISIS.

I didn't look the other way.  You get to say that you looked away.  You don't get to say that I looked away. What you do or don't remember about what was said is irrelevant. I don't live on this forum and don't talk that much about military affairs here. I've got other fra that focus on those sorts of things.

And, in any case, the civilian losses in Mosul caused by Coalition forces pale compared to those inflicted by the Israelis in Gaza.  Mosul had a population of 1.5 million compared to Gaza's 2.1 million, and suffered a bit less than 10,000 deaths, a thorough AP investigation noted.  Further,

Of the nearly 10,000 deaths the AP found, around a third of the casualties died in bombardments by the U.S.-led coalition or Iraqi forces, the AP analysis found. Another third of the dead were killed in the Islamic State group's final frenzy of violence. And it could not be determined which side was responsible for the deaths of the remainder, who were cowering in neighborhoods battered by airstrikes, IS explosives and mortar rounds from all sides.

Mosul is a graveyard: Final IS battle kills 9,000 civilians

The report gives a number of examples of the concern Coalition forces had for civilian casualties:

Reports of civilian deaths began to dominate military planning meetings in Baghdad in February and early March, according to a senior Western diplomat who was present but not authorized to speak on the record.

After a single coalition strike killed more than 100 civilians in Mosul's al-Jadidah neighborhood on March 17, the entire fight was put on hold for three weeks. Under intense international pressure, the coalition sent a team into the city to investigate.

Iraq's special forces units were instructed that they were no longer allowed to call in strikes on buildings. Instead, the forces were told to call in airstrikes on gardens and roads adjacent to IS group targets.

Not all of those measures were followed by everyone, but the effort to avoid excessive casualties is clear, and the result is clear: less than 10,000 killed as comparted to more than 39,000 killed in Gaza. Roughly 1-1 civilian to enemy military deaths, as opposed to roughly 4-1 in Gaza.

The evidence refutes your entire argument.

[Razgovory]

We don't know the real death toll in Gaza and we don't know combatants vs non combatant deaths. Filming dead fighters is a good way to get shot by Hamas.  We don't know the real death toll of Mosul, but the Kurds put it at 40k even your article admits it is incomplete.  In fact it goes so far as to say  Your quoting is fairly selective:

Iraq's special forces units were instructed that they were no longer allowed to call in strikes on buildings. Instead, the forces were told to call in airstrikes on gardens and roads adjacent to IS group targets.

A WhatsApp group shared by coalition advisers and Iraqi forces coordinating airstrikes previously named "killing daesh 24/7" was wryly renamed "scaring daesh 24/7."

"It was clear that the whole strategy in western Mosul had to be reconfigured," said the Western diplomat.

But on the ground, Iraqi special forces officers said after the operational pause, they returned to the fight just as before.

You skipped the important part.

Also this

The Pentagon investigation into the March strike concluded that a U.S. bomb resulted in the deaths of 105 civilians but ultimately blamed secondary explosions from IS-laid bombs.

The 500-pound (227-kilogram) bomb, the investigation concluded, "appropriately balanced the military necessity of neutralizing (two IS) snipers." Witnesses and survivors told the AP that IS had not set any explosives in the house that was hit. The house was packed with families sheltering from the fighting.

And finally

"It is simply irresponsible to focus criticism on inadvertent casualties caused by the Coalition's war to defeat ISIS," Col. Thomas Veale, a coalition spokesman, told the AP in response to questions about civilian deaths.

So, not that different than the Israelis.  If there are fewer civilian casualties it would probably be because difference in geography (Palestinians have fewer places to flee too), and the widespread use of human shields.

[grumbler]

We don't know the real death toll in Gaza and we don't know combatants vs non combatant deaths. Filming dead fighters is a good way to get shot by Hamas.  We don't know the real death toll of Mosul, but the Kurds put it at 40k even your article admits it is incomplete.  In fact it goes so far as to say  Your quoting is fairly selective:

Iraq's special forces units were instructed that they were no longer allowed to call in strikes on buildings. Instead, the forces were told to call in airstrikes on gardens and roads adjacent to IS group targets.

A WhatsApp group shared by coalition advisers and Iraqi forces coordinating airstrikes previously named "killing daesh 24/7" was wryly renamed "scaring daesh 24/7."

"It was clear that the whole strategy in western Mosul had to be reconfigured," said the Western diplomat.

But on the ground, Iraqi special forces officers said after the operational pause, they returned to the fight just as before.

You skipped the important part.

Your poor reading comprehension caused you to miss the fact that I didn't "skip the most important part" and in act noted that "Not all of those measures were followed by everyone."

Also this

(snip of irrelevant quote)

And finally

"It is simply irresponsible to focus criticism on inadvertent casualties caused by the Coalition's war to defeat ISIS," Col. Thomas Veale, a coalition spokesman, told the AP in response to questions about civilian deaths.

So, not that different than the Israelis.  If there are fewer civilian casualties it would probably be because difference in geography (Palestinians have fewer places to flee too), and the widespread use of human shields.

So not at all like the Israelis.  The Israelis killed far more civilians per thousand inhabitants and far more per enemy killed. You are equating oranges to basketballs.

[Razgovory]

"Yes, not all the measures were followed by everyone" means quickly ignored by everyone. So yes, fewer people died in Mosul than Gaza and the the rate of civilian casualties compared to combatants are unequal if we ignore the fact we don't know how many died in either Gaza or Mosul and we don't know the civilian to combatant ratio for either.  In Mosul we fought 7-13 thousand ISIS fighters.  Compare this to over 35,000 suspected Hamas fighters an unknown number are still alive.

We dropped 500lb bombs on two snipers killing well over 100 people, stalled our offensive because of it, and then went back to business as usual.  This is your example of of a much more moral battle.

On only one occasion during the period under review does it appear that pro-government forces did change tactics in west Mosul: the US-led coalition temporarily halted air strikes in response to the 17 March bombing in Mosul al-Jadida and reportedly reconsidered tactics. Amnesty International has been informed that a decision was made to lighten payloads as a result of the attack, although the Pentagon statement released on 25 May 2017 made no mention of this.127 Otherwise, Amnesty International found no evidence that tactics had been changed, as pro-government forces continued their reliance on artillery, mortars and IRAMs, all of which are less precise than air strikes using precision-guided munitions and are likely to have killed and injured far more people. 

So nobody seems to have actually changed tactics in response to the oopsie with the 500lb bomb.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MDE1466102017ENGLISH.pdf

Amnesty describes the coalition attacks as Indiscriminate, Disproportioned and Unlawful.

If, as Col Veale claimed, it is irresponsible to focus civilian casualties in the war against ISIS why are similar civilian casualties in Palestine worthy of so much more responsible focus?  Are Iraqi and Syrian civilians less valuable than Palestinian ones?  Or, as I suspect, the hand that killed the Palestinians less favored than the one that kills Iraqi and Syrians?

[Solmyr]

Israel is democratic, sure, but at this point Bibi is doing his best to turn it fascist. I like Israel and support its existence, but I don't want it to become what it is fighting.

[Jacob]

I regret unhiding Raz' comments to see him posting Putinist propaganda

[Razgovory]

If I posted something false, then tell me what it is.

[crazy canuck]

I regret unhiding Raz' comments to see him posting Putinist propaganda

A number of people have tried to engage with him.  But those efforts seemed to further radicalize him.

[Razgovory]

I regret unhiding Raz' comments to see him posting Putinist propaganda

A number of people have tried to engage with him.  But those efforts seemed to further radicalize him.

Have I?  I don't think I've changed my opinion on this matter at all.  I will admit, making false statements about my opinions hasn't changed my opinion that much.

My point about Ukraine and the war against ISIS is that we are willing to overlook flaws when it is in our best interest.  The statements about Ukraine seemed to have bothered people here, because they support Ukraine, not because they are factually false.  The flaws of Ukraine are just irrelevant compared to the greater danger of Russia.  Tolerating it was simply a sacrifice we were willing to make.  Obviously bring it up made some people uncomfortable, a condition known as cognitive dissonance.

If Evangelical Christians were firing rockets at British Columbia, I think you would tolerate quite a few civilian casualties (particularly if they were Evangelical Christian American casualties), in the name of ending the rocket attacks on you.  You basically went berserk during Covid when you felt the US wasn't doing enough to stop the spread of the illness.  I kept having to remind you that not all Americans were at fault, but you felt they were personally in danger so the difference between Trump and the American people sort of fell away.

[Valmy]

I also have problems with the military dictatorship of Poland in 1939. Cognitive dissonance for days and days.

I have problems with the leadership of both Palestine and Israel. I have endlessly and tirelessly explained my issue. This is an ethnic war going back over 100 years and it is protracted with no obvious solutions that do not involve atrocities. We shouldn't be  involved until a productive way forward presents itself.

That's been my position for awhile.

Yet you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on with tiresome pointless rant after tiresome pointless rant for months and years and never offer anything of substance beyond pretty lame accusations of hypocrisy, the last refuge of somebody with no point.

[Admiral Yi]

I also have problems with the military dictatorship of Poland in 1939. Cognitive dissonance for days and days.

I have problems with the leadership of both Palestine and Israel. I have endlessly and tirelessly explained my issue. This is an ethnic war going back over 100 years and it is protracted with no obvious solutions that do not involve atrocities. We shouldn't be  involved until a productive way forward presents itself.

That's been my position for awhile.

Yet you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on with tiresome pointless rant after tiresome pointless rant for months and years and never offer anything of substance beyond pretty lame accusations of hypocrisy, the last refuge of somebody with no point.

Perhaps his claim of hypocrisy is not directed at you.

[Razgovory]

Maybe don't have double standards?


I read an article, well over 20 years ago, during the 2nd intafada.  It stayed with me.

ISRAEL
Dark Thoughts and Quiet Desperation
Jews well understand the consequences of passively accepting doom.
April 07, 2002|DAVID D. PERLMUTTER | David D. Perlmutter is an associate professor of Mass Communication at Louisiana State University and a senior fellow at the Reilly Center for Media & Public Affairs. He is the author of "Visions of War."
BATON ROUGE, La. — When I was in college, an Armenian American acquaintance told me about his grandfather's obsession with the Turkish genocide against his people in the early part of the 20th century. To a comment of "nice weather today," the old man habitually would reply, "What does it matter since our people were slaughtered?"

I wonder if I will be like him 40 years from now. For the first time in my life, I see the shadows of Israel's destruction, if not by Arab armies all at once, then by suicide bombers, one Jewish child and mother at a time. I see an anti-Jewish European press sadistically attacking Israel's defensive measures. I see a clownishly hypocritical United Nations condemning Israel's bulldozing of a building while millions die in the Sudan or Tibet. I see my fellow academics musing and posturing in praise of demons who would cut their throats merely for being non-Muslims.

Small items, too, prick hard. I find myself getting irritated at a Jewish social organization I belong to for raising its dues: Why don't we send all the money to buy Israeli war bonds instead? I am furious when I read that some Jewish media mogul just gave $7 million to the Democratic National Committee. Where is the opposition of our good friends in the Democratic Party to President's Bush's persistent coddling of Yasser Arafat and the House of Saud?

I simmer, too, about how I see Jews fighting consistently for the good of all--from the civil rights movement to the salvation of Bosnian Muslims--but when the hangman comes for us, we find ourselves standing alone.

Mostly, I cannot stand watching the news--with its tired cliches of "cycles" of violence. Today, I see Arafat, sitting in his bunker, talking to "international activists" and proclaiming that the Israelis are just like Nazis. I wonder: Did Adolf Hitler allow his enemies press conferences? I daydream--if only! If in 1948, 1956, 1967 or 1973 Israel had acted just a bit like the Third Reich, then today Israelis would shop, eat pizza, marry and celebrate the holy days unmolested. And of course Jews, not sheiks, would have that Gulf oil. In contrast, if the Arabs had conquered Israel, does anyone think a single Jew would today be alive between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean?

This is what I'm reduced to: thinking like a Nazi when an Arab accuses Jews of acting like Nazis.

I'm unhappy as well--especially since I teach political communication--at Israel's unsophisticated, unplanned media policy. Since the Lebanon war, the seven squabbling Israeli ministries that claim to control press relations have been notorious for either ignoring or failing to understand the needs of modern journalism. One journalist noted to me: "The Palestinians will go to the news bureaus each day and pitch stories, and go out of their way to help arrange interviews and suggest places to shoot. From the Israeli government, all you get is statements, silence or red tape."

A more ominous reason that the evening news is so laden with images favorable to the Palestinians is that they are chosen and shot by Palestinians. Israeli reporters are banned from working in Palestinian areas; foreign journalists are subtly or violently pressured to either keep out or report with a pro-Palestinian bias. The result is that most television networks and news bureaus use Palestinian stringers for spot news coverage and also for translations. So, Arafat and his allies are allowed to make statements like, "We are the only occupied people in the world" without an accompanying laugh track.

But what to do? I have other dreams as well--apocalyptic ones. I think:

Israel has been building nuclear weapons for 30 years. The Jews understand what passive and powerless acceptance of doom has meant for them in the past, and they have ensured against it. Masada was not an example to follow--it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Sampson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens?

For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?

These are my dark thoughts and quiet desperations. Who will dissolve them? Who will silence the madness? Will I even be allowed to become an old, bitter man? Will any of us have the chance to look back on these days beyond the mushroom clouds of tomorrow?

If Israel falls, it will probably take us with it.  That seems like a good reason to be involved, don't you think?