Israel-Palestine flame thread

[Threviel]

If anything, Israel's bombing of civilians is more comparable to what Russia is doing.

Both yes and no. They both kill civilians and sometimes they miss and kill civilians that are not legitimate targets.

Just that the Russian ratio of misses/expended ammo is probably miles higher and sometimes probably not misses.

I still have no clue what the Israeli end game is. A quick, brutal and successful defeat of Hamas I would support. This drawn out half measure is just horrible, better to get out of Gaza and rebuild the wall.

[Razgovory]

If anything, Israel's bombing of civilians is more comparable to what Russia is doing.

Zelenskyy seems to feel differently.  The main difference is that the Russia rockets fall on Europe,  Palestinian rockets fall on Israel.  You and so many like you are willing to over look the flaws of Ukraine because it is your ass on the line.  You could also be victims of Russian aggression.  Your high minded ideals decline into cold hearted pragmatism when you are in danger, that's why Finland is exiting the Landmine treaty.  That's why you overlook NeoNazis that fight for you, that is why martial law is okay in Ukraine.  Hamas and Hezbollah are no danger to you, if they were, you would have much less of a problem with the deaths of Palestinians.

To be honest, the antizionists sound a great deal like the Ukraine skeptics, just for different sides.  In people like Tucker Carlson you have both.  Dislike for both Ukraine and Israel.

[Zoupa]

Hey Raz, what's wrong with martial law in Ukraine exactly?

Also, do you have any data on the percentage of neo-nazis that fight in the Ukrainian Armed Forces?

Thanks.

[Zoupa]

Also, Israel will have a delegation for Moscow's May 9th parade. They will join forces with the much respected Azerbaijan, Belarus, Serbia, Tajikistan and North Korea. So much winning!

[Razgovory]

Hey Raz, what's wrong with martial law in Ukraine exactly?

Also, do you have any data on the percentage of neo-nazis that fight in the Ukrainian Armed Forces?

Thanks.

They had a brigade, the Ukraine skeptics bring it up all the time.  They bring up the marital law that blocks the elections calling Zelensky a dictator.  I suppose if Israel did this you would have a problem with it.  But Ukraine fights for you, so it's not a problem.  Like I said, you demand I commit violence because of what Trump says, why don't you demand that of the Gazans for the murder and rapes their government commits?  We Americans all are guilty due to Trump, why not the same for Palestinians?

Both Ukraine and Israel have flaws, but they try to be democracies and they fight against something far worse.  You balls of light shine so brightly when denouncing Americans and Israelis, but when Russian tanks go west and European blood is spilt you dim down to same level of as the unenlightened rest of humanity.

[Zoupa]

Yeah this ain't it. I have no problems with Gazans/Israelis/anybody getting rid of Hamas. The issue I have with Israel's response is the casual disregard for collateral casualties, contrary to how I imagined modern, western armies fight. Thankfully my views were confirmed by military personnel in this very thread, cognizant of the rules of engagement.

I wouldn't have a problem with any country declaring martial law if they're engaged in war. That's the whole point of martial law, so you're wrong again on that point.

I never "demanded" you commit violence because of what Trump says/does lol. You overestimate how much the rest of the world cares or is even impacted by what happens in domestic US politics. You guys can turn into a dystopian technocratic feudal system if you want.

[Josquius]

Yes, it is wrong but does it diminish your support for Ukraine?  Those NeoNazis that fought for Ukraine, did that cause you to throw up your hands and say "well both sides are bad"?  Of course not.

Interesting. You seem to finally understand the position of those who sympathise with the Palestinians.
Of course Hamas are bad. Thats not in doubt.
But is their being evil scumbags any reason to to damn every Palestinian?

[Razgovory]

Yeah this ain't it. I have no problems with Gazans/Israelis/anybody getting rid of Hamas. The issue I have with Israel's response is the casual disregard for collateral casualties, contrary to how I imagined modern, western armies fight. Thankfully my views were confirmed by military personnel in this very thread, cognizant of the rules of engagement.

I wouldn't have a problem with any country declaring martial law if they're engaged in war. That's the whole point of martial law, so you're wrong again on that point.

I never "demanded" you commit violence because of what Trump says/does lol. You overestimate how much the rest of the world cares or is even impacted by what happens in domestic US politics. You guys can turn into a dystopian technocratic feudal system if you want.

Raz: And then what?  What is our game plan when the majority of the population is terrible?  This is utterly self-defeating.

Zoupa: Violence

Raz: You want me to kill my neighbors?  Holy shit, you're crazier than I am.

Zoupa: I figure there'd be a few steps prior to that. Civil disobedience. Violence against property. History shows that if you want to fight fascism, you're gonna have to put your body on the line eventually.

https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,14439.msg1472525.html#msg1472525

The Palestinians don't fight fascism for the most part, they celebrate it.  The ones that protested it were murdered.

When it comes to Americans you spaz out, we made our bed.  Trump threatens to annex you, suddenly all people in a nation are fair game.  Cry about you said.  Would you tell the kids that kicked Shani Louk's corpse to cry about it?





This isn't a deal breaker for you because your interests are directly tired to Ukraine.  You tolerate it, you support it, because the Russian tanks are going toward you.  How many Russian civilian deaths are acceptable to preserve Europe?  50k?  100K?  At what point would you say "fuck it, let the Russian overrun all of Europe!  We deserve it!".

[viper37]

They bring up the marital law that blocks the elections calling Zelensky a dictator.

How do you organize free elections in a warzone?

Israel maintains itself in a war so that Bibi won't be arrested in his own country.

We Americans all are guilty due to Trump, why not the same for Palestinians?

When another country is attacked by America, the rationale used is usually along the lines of "if they didn't support their government, they would rebel".  You used a variation of the same line for Palestinians, saying they deserved to be slaughtered by Israel because of a survey indicating support for Hamas.

Don't be surprised if tolerance for Americans asking to immigrate in our countries is very low.  We're asking you to fix your mess.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

This isn't a deal breaker for you because your interests are directly tired to Ukraine.  You tolerate it, you support it, because the Russian tanks are going toward you.  How many Russian civilian deaths are acceptable to preserve Europe?  50k?  100K?  At what point would you say "fuck it, let the Russian overrun all of Europe!  We deserve it!".

You keep coming back to the Azov Brigade, using material that is over a decade old at this point.  While there are probably still some neo-Nazis in the brigade, it is not a neo-Nazi unit, and has had the support of Ukrainian Jewish groups and a Jewish billionaire for years.  You are almost at the level of Russian propaganda on this right now.

As to the broader issue...

One, Zoupa is Canadian.  He doesn't have to worry about Russian tanks overrunning his home, unless the US invasion of Canada actually happens and Daddy Putin helps.

Two, in three years of open war Ukraine has killed roughly 1,000 Russian civilians, despite their attacks on Russian infrastructure and on military targets in populated areas.  Sure, if they had more capability to perform these strikes the casualty numbers would be higher, but they still strike with precision and minimal collateral damage.

Three, you are uncharitably oversimplifying the situation.  Nobody is absolving Ukraine of any and all actions it takes just because they're fighting the Russians.  If Ukraine was hitting Russian targets without care, and needlessly killing Russian civilians in the process, they would be getting shit, too.

Four, you seem to be trying really hard to paint a picture of collective guilt for all Palestinians, while rejecting it for Americans.  You can't highlight instances of Palestinians Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Palestinians any more than you can highlight Americans Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Americans.

Also, the quotes you posted prove that Zoupa did not demand anything.  He just indicated that violence needed to be on the table, to be wielded at some point if lesser means failed.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

When another country is attacked by America, the rationale used is usually along the lines of "if they didn't support their government, they would rebel".

No, it isn't, at least not by anybody who's serious.  The last two countries we invaded we partnered with rebels who were actively fighting the ruling government.  In Iraq in particular we had this idea that we would be greeted as liberators, which we were... for about 3.5 minutes.

[HVC]

While it's commendable that you guys are trying to convince Raz that indiscrimatly  killing Muslims is bad thing I doubt you'll ever succeed

[Admiral Yi]

While it's commendable that you guys are trying to convince Raz that indiscrimatly  killing Muslims is bad thing I doubt you'll ever succeed

Is that what Raz is for?  I missed it.

Hey Raz, indiscriminately killing Muslims is a bad thing.

[HVC]

While it's commendable that you guys are trying to convince Raz that indiscrimatly  killing Muslims is bad thing I doubt you'll ever succeed

Is that what Raz is for?  I missed it.

Hey Raz, indiscriminately killing Muslims is a bad thing.

While half heart i guess I'll commend you too . Bad news though, won't work

[Admiral Yi]

While half heart i guess I'll commend you too . Bad news though, won't work

I don't accept your premise.