Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

Is at least one?

I think Raz's stat is very interesting.  If the IDF were indiscriminately targeting civilians half the dead would be below 18.  Half would be women.  This is clearly not the case.

[Zoupa]

Raz's stats are about as reliable as the Hamas stats. Your "this is clearly not the case" is not founded on anything.

[Admiral Yi]

My this is clearly not the case is founded on many things.  The whole world has been accepting the Hamas total death states as at least an approximation.

[Zoupa]

Sure. Then yes, there's at least one palestinian male over 15 that is currently fighting the IDF in Gaza.

[The Minsky Moment]

Break the morale.  Make them hate the war and really want peace.  When they say they want death, call their bluff.  Give them what they ask for.

. . .

War is cruelty, and I think we made a mistake trying to refine it.

Don't agree but at now I know where you are arguing from.

[Razgovory]

Your ratio is non sensical. Are all males over 15 in Gaza shooting at the IDF?

I'm not great with stats.  How would you determine who is a combatant and who is not?

[Razgovory]

Break the morale.  Make them hate the war and really want peace.  When they say they want death, call their bluff.  Give them what they ask for.

. . .

War is cruelty, and I think we made a mistake trying to refine it.

Don't agree but at now I know where you are arguing from.

A quarter century of failure really fucks up someone's idealism.

[Zoupa]

Your ratio is non sensical. Are all males over 15 in Gaza shooting at the IDF?

I'm not great with stats.  How would you determine who is a combatant and who is not?

Geneva Convention IV, Protocol 2, Article 13, Point 3:

Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Part, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

You'll be happy to know that Israel has not signed or ratified that treaty.

[Razgovory]

My this is clearly not the case is founded on many things.  The whole world has been accepting the Hamas total death states as at least an approximation.

Well, both numbers come from Hamas.  One is the raw data sets and one is their official reports about those data sets.

in October 2023. 5.  CONTRADICTORY HAMAS WAR CASUALTY NARRATIVES: Smoothly packaged and widely propagated Hamas Government Media Office (GMO) information press releases that claimed 70% women and children casualties were in contradiction with the more reliable Ministry of Health raw datasets. GMO data showed that children's deaths were more numerous than adult women or men, while MoH data showed that men were most numerous. Nevertheless, MoH 'dashboard' infographics and public statements were demonstrably false when compared to its own datasets; for example, its repeated publishing of a 70% women and children casualty rate that was inconsistent with its detailed hospitalsourced datasets. These various contradictions enabled Hamas to argue various different narratives when convenient.

Many people seem to prefer what Hamas says rather their own hospital records.

[Razgovory]

Your ratio is non sensical. Are all males over 15 in Gaza shooting at the IDF?

I'm not great with stats.  How would you determine who is a combatant and who is not?

Geneva Convention IV, Protocol 2, Article 13, Point 3:

Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Part, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

You'll be happy to know that Israel has not signed or ratified that treaty.

Yeah, so?  Civilians, or really militants in civilian clothing, are taking direct part in hostilities.  It's not a war crime to kill civilians.  And still, you didn't answer my question.

[Zoupa]

A civilian taking part in hostilities ceases to be a civilian. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Your question was: How would you determine who is a combatant and who is not?

My answer is: is this person taking a direct part in hostilities? There ya go. You found your combatant.

You're being intentionally obtuse.

[Razgovory]

A civilian taking part in hostilities ceases to be a civilian. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Your question was: How would you determine who is a combatant and who is not?

My answer is: is this person taking a direct part in hostilities? There ya go. You found your combatant.

You're being intentionally obtuse.

Are you sure it's me that being obtuse?  If Hamas fights in civilian clothing, if it counts it's dead fighters as civilians (and sometimes as women), how do we know the Israelis are such terrible beasts killing indiscriminately?  

[Zoupa]

It's the IDF's job to differentiate between civilians and combatants. The high number of dead women of children as well as the methods and weapons used by the IDF tell me they don't really give a shit about differentiating.

[Solmyr]

I'm tired of playing these stupid games.  I'm tired of the bad guys winning.  Why should we let them win by committing war crimes?  Hamas delibratly works to get civilians killed, and rather than outrage, it turns people to their side.  You want to give them what they want, the Israelis out of Gaza.  Hamas manipulation is working.

So basically, we should not let the guys who commit war crimes win, so we will commit war crimes to win. Great logic there.

[Tamas]

To re-quote CC from my post, he considers it a core disagreement between hinswlf and Raz

This seems to be a core area of disagreement.  Raz seems to equate Hamas with the "state" of Gaza (always a fiction) and the people of the Gaza taken as a whole, at least as their sole legitimate representative.

Treating Hamas ruling Gaza as a fiction "always" is a very strong opinion to take in light of practically observable reality since their 2006 election win.

Otherwise of course it has nothing to do with the famine. Supporting even by quiet compliance a murderous regime is no reason to starve civilians to death.

Although one could mention that America burned entire Japanese cities and nuked two of them for that very reason, and Japan didn't even declare the destruction of the US as their reason of existence.

I have no idea where you are going with this. CC and Raz disagree (according to CC) on the existence of the state of Gaza, and thus the existence of a a state-to-state war and Hamas being a party to a formal war rather than a criminal organization under attack.

The Mob de facto ruled Chicago during the latter stages of Prohibition, but no one mistook them for a national government.

Sorry no cropping as I am on my phone. Articles like this repeatedly refer to the Gazan health ministry. Who are they if not Hamas, then? If they are not Hamas, why is this de-facto government (accepted by the UN and the press for official Gaza news) not partaking in the cease fire negotiations? If these "ministries" accepted by the UN as reliable sources of information and data ARE run by Hamas then Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza.

Edit: forgot the link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/03/israel-gaza-war-hamas-releases-second-video-of-hostage