Israel-Hamas War 2023

[grumbler]

Who is (or rather, was) in de facto control of Gaza if not Hamas?

Israel is in de facto control of Gaza.  The famine there is deliberate on their part.

[Tamas]

Who is (or rather, was) in de facto control of Gaza if not Hamas?

Israel is in de facto control of Gaza.  The famine there is deliberate on their part.

I, very obviously, meant before the October 7 attack

[grumbler]

I, very obviously, meant before the October 7 attack

Why are you trying to re-plow this well-plowed issue?  What is its relevance to the Gaza famine?

[Tamas]

I, very obviously, meant before the October 7 attack

Why are you trying to re-plow this well-plowed issue?  What is its relevance to the Gaza famine?

To re-quote CC from my post, he considers it a core disagreement between hinswlf and Raz

This seems to be a core area of disagreement.  Raz seems to equate Hamas with the "state" of Gaza (always a fiction) and the people of the Gaza taken as a whole, at least as their sole legitimate representative.

Treating Hamas ruling Gaza as a fiction "always" is a very strong opinion to take in light of practically observable reality since their 2006 election win.

Otherwise of course it has nothing to do with the famine. Supporting even by quiet compliance a murderous regime is no reason to starve civilians to death.

Although one could mention that America burned entire Japanese cities and nuked two of them for that very reason, and Japan didn't even declare the destruction of the US as their reason of existence.

[grumbler]

To re-quote CC from my post, he considers it a core disagreement between hinswlf and Raz

This seems to be a core area of disagreement.  Raz seems to equate Hamas with the "state" of Gaza (always a fiction) and the people of the Gaza taken as a whole, at least as their sole legitimate representative.

Treating Hamas ruling Gaza as a fiction "always" is a very strong opinion to take in light of practically observable reality since their 2006 election win.

Otherwise of course it has nothing to do with the famine. Supporting even by quiet compliance a murderous regime is no reason to starve civilians to death.

Although one could mention that America burned entire Japanese cities and nuked two of them for that very reason, and Japan didn't even declare the destruction of the US as their reason of existence.

I have no idea where you are going with this. CC and Raz disagree (according to CC) on the existence of the state of Gaza, and thus the existence of a a state-to-state war and Hamas being a party to a formal war rather than a criminal organization under attack.

The Mob de facto ruled Chicago during the latter stages of Prohibition, but no one mistook them for a national government.

[Zoupa]

I'm so tired of these comparisons. WW2 was 80 years ago. The Geneva Convention didn't even exist. Aren't we supposed to evolve as a species?

I, very obviously, meant before the October 7 attack

Why are you trying to re-plow this well-plowed issue?  What is its relevance to the Gaza famine?

To re-quote CC from my post, he considers it a core disagreement between hinswlf and Raz

This seems to be a core area of disagreement.  Raz seems to equate Hamas with the "state" of Gaza (always a fiction) and the people of the Gaza taken as a whole, at least as their sole legitimate representative.

Treating Hamas ruling Gaza as a fiction "always" is a very strong opinion to take in light of practically observable reality since their 2006 election win.

Otherwise of course it has nothing to do with the famine. Supporting even by quiet compliance a murderous regime is no reason to starve civilians to death.

Although one could mention that America burned entire Japanese cities and nuked two of them for that very reason, and Japan didn't even declare the destruction of the US as their reason of existence.

[Josquius]

America's behaviour against Japan is pretty controversial. They really dehumanised the Japanese in a way they just didn't with the Germans.
It certainly would not fly today at all. Both for basic moral reasons and because levelling entire cities has less of a military argument behind it when you can target specific buildings.

[Grey Fox]

It would fly again no problem. If we ever find ourselves in a state of total war again everything will be on the table once more. The fuck will I care about poor Russian/ Chinese civilians when their government is trying to kill me.

The Geneva convention isn't worth the paper it was printed on.

I'm sorry for the 2 year old starving in Gaza, his grand parents made a terrible mistake 20 years ago. We should do something about that.

[The Minsky Moment]

Israel unquestionably was in de jure control of Gaza before Oct. 7.  They are the occupying power; it is straightforward.

De facto - depends on how you look at it.  Hamas exercised practical day-to-day control over whatever matters they wished *within* the boundaries of Gaza, but little control over borders and other external matters. Moreover, whatever control they exercised was at the sufferance of the occupying power.  Israel accepted Hamas control because it preferred that outcome to the alternatives of direct rule from Jerusalem and rule by a unified Palestinian Authority joining the West Bank and Gaza. That was Israel's policy choice, much criticized by others, and as it turned out, a very serious error.

[The Minsky Moment]

Treating Hamas ruling Gaza as a fiction "always" is a very strong opinion to take in light of practically observable reality since their 2006 election win.

The fiction is that Gaza is a state.  It's not and never has been, at least since the days of the Philistines and the Pentapolis.  It's occupied territory.

That 2006 election win basically has nothing to do with the realities in 2023.  This isn't the Long Parliament. A narrow plurality eked out in an election nearly 20 years prior had nothing to do with the reality of Hamas domination in 2023.

[DGuller]

I'm so tired of these comparisons. WW2 was 80 years ago. The Geneva Convention didn't even exist. Aren't we supposed to evolve as a species?

We haven't evolved enough to design treaties that wouldn't reward those not abiding by them.

[Zoupa]

True. Especially since Israel didn't sign it.

[Razgovory]

America's behaviour against Japan is pretty controversial. They really dehumanised the Japanese in a way they just didn't with the Germans.
It certainly would not fly today at all. Both for basic moral reasons and because levelling entire cities has less of a military argument behind it when you can target specific buildings.

I think we killed more Germans than Japanese.  We dehumanized the Germans plenty, and I think we treated them worse after the war than we did the Japanese.  People aren't anymore moral now then they were then.  If put in a similar situation people, including you, would act pretty much the same way.

[Razgovory]

Treating Hamas ruling Gaza as a fiction "always" is a very strong opinion to take in light of practically observable reality since their 2006 election win.

The fiction is that Gaza is a state.  It's not and never has been, at least since the days of the Philistines and the Pentapolis.  It's occupied territory.

That 2006 election win basically has nothing to do with the realities in 2023.  This isn't the Long Parliament. A narrow plurality eked out in an election nearly 20 years prior had nothing to do with the reality of Hamas domination in 2023.

That is just bullshit.  Statehood isn't some magical achievement.  It is simply collecting taxes, issuing laws, and having a monopoly on legitimate use of force.  Hamas had those in Gaza.  It had a government, it had laws, it had police, it provided services, and it didn't have any competitors (though it did farm out to other loyal militias).  It was a defacto state, and it wasn't occupied by Israel because it was cut off anymore than any other state is occupied because they are under blockade.

[Razgovory]

I'm tired of playing these stupid games.  I'm tired of the bad guys winning.  Why should we let them win by committing war crimes?  Hamas delibratly works to get civilians killed, and rather than outrage, it turns people to their side. 

Yes.
It is incredibly frustrating dealing with terrorist organizations.  And Hamas is one of the worst there has ever been. Terrorists only care about inflicting the worst damage on their enemies and care nothing of the people for whom they purportedly right. Fighting terrorism always forces the opponent to choose between maximum retaliatory effect and maintaining their own sense of decency and humanity. But the party fighting terrorism still maintains moral agency and responsibility, regardless of the terrorist outrage and provocation.  This is a lesson the US had to learn the hard way in the GWOT, and that Israel is refusing to learn now.

And how did that work out for us?  Afghanistan fell, Iraq is in Iran's orbit.  We lost.  The people in Israel who treated Palestinians with humanity and decency, the ones on the border who took people from Gaza for medical care in Israel, and worked to help their fellow human beings in Gaza, they were the ones killed and raped and kidnapped and dragged through the streets of Gaza. Their humanity and decency didn't mean a goddamn thing.  The Gazans they helped were often spies, looking for vulnerabilities. They took advantage of the people bordering Gaza just as Hamas take advantage of us in the West.

Unlike the US in Afghanistan or Iraq they can't just pack up and leave.  We could leave the Fascists to do whatever the fuck they wanted in their own countries.  Israel really can't.

Contrary to what Zoupa says we didn't "Evolve", we became safe.  We have the privilege of not being in danger on a regular basis.  And with our privilege we have convinced ourselves that different from those who came before us. When our safety was threatened, on 9/11 or by bombs going off in Europe, we had no problem with killing civilians.  If something really big hit us, I think Oct 7th, scaled up, would be the equivalent to the killing of 18,000 Americans, we would come down on whoever did it worse than the Israelis did on Gaza.  So perhaps before you judge them, check your privilege.