Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Iormlund]

Yeah.... It's totally the Palestinians who are the genocidal ones here...

Going door to door slaughtering and abducting people, regardless of their age or combatant status seems pretty genocidal to me.
And an overwhelming majority of Palestinians approve of the Oct 7 attacks (85% or so IIRC).

[Josquius]

Yeah.... It's totally the Palestinians who are the genocidal ones here...

Going door to door slaughtering and abducting people, regardless of their age or combatant status seems pretty genocidal to me.
And an overwhelming majority of Palestinians approve of the Oct 7 attacks (85% or so IIRC).

You try having your town bombed to hell every night and your kids starved to death and see how readily you agree with shit being thrown the other way.

But I see the point completely eluded you here.
Denying the Palestinian people even exist and insisting the very word is a slur is pretty damn far beyond the pale.

[Iormlund]

Yeah.... It's totally the Palestinians who are the genocidal ones here...

Going door to door slaughtering and abducting people, regardless of their age or combatant status seems pretty genocidal to me.
And an overwhelming majority of Palestinians approve of the Oct 7 attacks (85% or so IIRC).

You try having your town bombed to hell every night and your kids starved to death and see how readily you agree with shit being thrown the other way.

You said they are not genocidal. I pointed out that's demonstrably untrue. We have seen what they do when they are let loose and they themselves have repeatedly put forward their support for those actions.

Part of the problem is we (as in the West) are constantly robbing Palestinians of their agency. They can and have chosen repeatedly to continue the war of 1948 rather than move on. And we need to acknowledge that.

But I see the point completely eluded you here.
Denying the Palestinian people even exist and insisting the very word is a slur is pretty damn far beyond the pale.

I'm not particularly interested in what Otto said, which is why I cropped that quote.

[grumbler]

Arguing that it is only the Palestinians who "have chosen repeatedly to continue the war of 1948 rather than move on" robs Israelis of their agency.  Israeli has never stopped taking Palestinian land and has never compensated the Palestinians from whom they stole it.  That does not excuse Oct 7 nor the support Palestinians show for that gruesome act, but it does help explain it and helps us understand such support.  The Palestinians are frustrated beyond all of our comprehension of frustration, I think.

[Josquius]

Yeah.... It's totally the Palestinians who are the genocidal ones here...

Going door to door slaughtering and abducting people, regardless of their age or combatant status seems pretty genocidal to me.
And an overwhelming majority of Palestinians approve of the Oct 7 attacks (85% or so IIRC).

You try having your town bombed to hell every night and your kids starved to death and see how readily you agree with shit being thrown the other way.

You said they are not genocidal. I pointed out that's demonstrably untrue. We have seen what they do when they are let loose and they themselves have repeatedly put forward their support for those actions.

Part of the problem is we (as in the West) are constantly robbing Palestinians of their agency. They can and have chosen repeatedly to continue the war of 1948 rather than move on. And we need to acknowledge that.

But I see the point completely eluded you here.
Denying the Palestinian people even exist and insisting the very word is a slur is pretty damn far beyond the pale.

I'm not particularly interested in what Otto said, which is why I cropped that quote.

Yet my post means nothing without it. It is as a direct reply. Claiming a people are genocidal when he has the view not only shoukd they be wiped out but they don't even exist.

[OttoVonBismarck]

You guys just need to stop using the word genocide, you do not know what it means, and you are using it as a means of creating a false narrative. No genocide is happening in Gaza, none is going to happen. The only remotely genocidal thing is the intention of Palestinians, who are genocidal by nature. But like a viper in a terrarium, they lack the means to inflict their injury on the Jews, at least at present (many posters in this thread hate that the Jews have the stronger military, and would happily cheer if the Arabs had a force capable of committing genocide.)

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with colonialism, it never had, and you should also quit making that claim.

It also has nothing to do with nationalism or national self determination--Palestinians are not a Nation, they are Arab nationality.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a simple land conflict, one in which both sides have historically valid claims to the land in question. However, that historical validity has to be analyzed through the lens of subsequent events.

Somewhere along the line, and I couldn't say precisely where--the Second Intifada is a decent choice, but you could go as late as October-7, the Palestinians lost any moral legitimacy to their land claim. Their claim should be viewed as intrinsically invalid. They have forfeited their just rights to the land due to their behavior. No different than Germany forfeiting its just rights to many of its Eastern territories due to its behavior in the 20th century.

[Josquius]

You're the one ridiculously throwing around  the word genocide  here....

And of course colonialism plays a huge rule. Dumb to argue otherwise.

Fuck your nations. The Palestinians are a people. Whether they're just a subgroup of Arabs or a seperate people is completely irrelevant and arbitrary.
Do Texans matter less because they're just a subtype of Americans ergo Mexico seizing Texas (daft theoretical yes) would be fine?

Trying to fight to defend your land doesn't invalidate your claim to the land.  Especially considering all those Palestinians who didn't fight in any conflict.

And Germany shouldn't have lost most of eastern territories post WW2. That was a fucked up action forced on the world out of the grim reality of needing to keep the Soviets happy.
Nazi genocide didn't make the genocide of the Eastern Germans OK.

[Threviel]

Palestinians might not have been a nation in the 40's, but almost a century of conflict have no doubt made them one now.

[Razgovory]

Just like Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics.

[OttoVonBismarck]

And Germany shouldn't have lost most of eastern territories post WW2. That was a fucked up action forced on the world out of the grim reality of needing to keep the Soviets happy.

Wars have consequences. When you start a war and kill millions of people, the consequences are intrinsically just. Germany could never have been permitted to do what it did and simply return to the status quo, it needed, and justly received, serious punishment.

Also using the term "genocide" to refer to what was done to the Germans after WWII shows why you and people like you need to not use that word.

The Palestinians have not killed as many, but they are likewise worthy of punishment--in this case losing validity of their land claims. (Note, Israel could still always negotiate concessions to them, the Palestinians just no longer have any moral validity to their land claims.)

[grumbler]

Palestinians might not have been a nation in the 40's, but almost a century of conflict have no doubt made them one now.

Israel might not have been a nation in the 40's, but almost a century of conflict have no doubt made it one now (not saying this to disagree, because I agree, but it's useful to point out that northing about Palestine is as artificial as Israel).

Palestine is no more a nation than Israel, and no less.  Both are artificial constructs of the way the European colonizers drew lines on a map. 

[viper37]

The OvB-Netanyahu way is to kill everyone until there's no one standing.

I'll let Otto speak for himself but clearly that statement is wrong re Netanyahu.  He has a nuclear arsenal and overwhelming conventional force at his disposal; if his "way" was to "kill everyone until there's no one standing" then by the end of the day on October 8, every man, woman and child in Gaza would either have been dead or sitting down.  Since nothing like that happened or has happened, the claim is false.

And using nukes in Gaza is a sure way of not being able to use the territory for Jewish colonists or risking fallout in Israel's current territory.

You know better than that.

[Josquius]

Just like Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics.

Exactly. OVB would have it that these are totally legitimate annexations - afterall, Donbassians aren't a people, the Ukrainians have plenty of land.

So in 1918 only a tiny minority of Palestinians wanted to be independent. Most wanted to be part of Syria.... This somehow makes their opinion invalid? It makes them less deserving of human rights somehow?

And Germany shouldn't have lost most of eastern territories post WW2. That was a fucked up action forced on the world out of the grim reality of needing to keep the Soviets happy.

Wars have consequences. When you start a war and kill millions of people, the consequences are intrinsically just. Germany could never have been permitted to do what it did and simply return to the status quo, it needed, and justly received, serious punishment.

Also using the term "genocide" to refer to what was done to the Germans after WWII shows why you and people like you need to not use that word.

The Palestinians have not killed as many, but they are likewise worthy of punishment--in this case losing validity of their land claims. (Note, Israel could still always negotiate concessions to them, the Palestinians just no longer have any moral validity to their land claims.)

You're the one who introduced the word genocide for something ridiculous here.

The cleansing of the eastern German lands didn't get the label of genocide as what with the politics of the time we couldn't very well be having Germany be the victims so soon after they were the perupators. When we had to hammer home their criminality to fix the country.
 But it certainly amounts to that and in another dimension where the Soviets had just headed west and done the same thing without ww2 and all the nazi horrors before that there would be quite the debate on counting it as so.

Wars have consequences... But those consequences should not be the massed rape and murder of civilians, destroying the very existence of an ethnic group in an area where they've been for centuries, and generally following an eye for an eye pretty straight.

[Valmy]

There should free and democratic Palestinian state along the 1967 borders. That was supposedly always been the policy goal of the US.

[Valmy]

Okay, that is too much.

That person isn't even that fat. What a poser.