Israel-Hamas War 2023

[garbon]

I think those are pretty ridiculous too. 'I threw soup at the Mona Lisa for climate change' ... okay?

Exactly.  They are ridiculous.  But you won't ascribe them to entire effort to fight back against climate change, where as here, you seem to equate this act of vandalism to the entire Palestinian cause.

Destroying a painting of one of Israel's founders = All Palestinians are antisemites.

Throwing soup of Mona Lisa to raise awareness about climate change = one idiot.

Hmm.  Okay?

No, sorry. You don't get to make up things I never said.

[Tamas]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/10/british-muslims-reflect-ramadan-begins

This article seems to have found the true victims of the terror attack on Israel: British Muslims.

[grumbler]

I've certainly heard from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Is that all that is being referred to with chants (seemed to imply more than one) calling for a Palestine ruled one state solution? (it doesn't)
As that seems very off.

The phrase "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" certainly does imply a one-state solution.  You cannot get a Palestine "from the river to the sea" without eliminating the non-Palestine between the river and the sea.  A look at a map of the Middle East will demonstrate that for you.

[grumbler]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/10/british-muslims-reflect-ramadan-begins

This article seems to have found the true victims of the terror attack on Israel: British Muslims.

You linked to the wrong article.  The one in your link says nothing about British Muslims being victims of Hamas terrorism.

[viper37]

I think those are pretty ridiculous too. 'I threw soup at the Mona Lisa for climate change' ... okay?

Exactly.  They are ridiculous.  But you won't ascribe them to entire effort to fight back against climate change, where as here, you seem to equate this act of vandalism to the entire Palestinian cause.

Destroying a painting of one of Israel's founders = All Palestinians are antisemites.

Throwing soup of Mona Lisa to raise awareness about climate change = one idiot.

Hmm.  Okay?

No, sorry. You don't get to make up things I never said.

What is it you said then?

[garbon]

I think those are pretty ridiculous too. 'I threw soup at the Mona Lisa for climate change' ... okay?

Exactly.  They are ridiculous.  But you won't ascribe them to entire effort to fight back against climate change, where as here, you seem to equate this act of vandalism to the entire Palestinian cause.

Destroying a painting of one of Israel's founders = All Palestinians are antisemites.

Throwing soup of Mona Lisa to raise awareness about climate change = one idiot.

Hmm.  Okay?

No, sorry. You don't get to make up things I never said.

What is it you said then?

Great thing about a forum is you can easily go back and look.

[viper37]

Great thing about a forum is you can easily go back and look.

I give up.  I surrender.

[garbon]

Great thing about a forum is you can easily go back and look.

I give up.  I surrender.

No if you were surrendering, you would apologise for making shit up.

[Josquius]

I've certainly heard from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Is that all that is being referred to with chants (seemed to imply more than one) calling for a Palestine ruled one state solution? (it doesn't)
As that seems very off.

The phrase "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" certainly does imply a one-state solution.  You cannot get a Palestine "from the river to the sea" without eliminating the non-Palestine between the river and the sea.  A look at a map of the Middle East will demonstrate that for you.

The trouble is the multiple meanings of the word Palestine.

Palestine is a 'country'- the West Bank and Gaza, the areas 'ran' by the Palestinians.
Palestine is also a region- Israel and Palestine are both in the historic region of Palestine.
Though there absolutely are those using the phrase who mean it in a sense of "Genocide the Jews, Palestine-State Uber Alles", hence the controversy and calls for others to find a less vague phrase, the bulk of those using it don't carry any connotations of a one or two state solution. They just want Palestine (the entire region) to be free.

'Free' too is awfully vague in wording- North Korea is 'Free' according to the sense of the word used by the genocidal nuts and those on the right who want to smear all pro-Palestinian folks as the same.
Its absolutely not a free country according to many other definitions.

[garbon]

I've certainly heard from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Is that all that is being referred to with chants (seemed to imply more than one) calling for a Palestine ruled one state solution? (it doesn't)
As that seems very off.

The phrase "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" certainly does imply a one-state solution.  You cannot get a Palestine "from the river to the sea" without eliminating the non-Palestine between the river and the sea.  A look at a map of the Middle East will demonstrate that for you.

The trouble is the multiple meanings of the word Palestine.

Palestine is a 'country'- the West Bank and Gaza, the areas 'ran' by the Palestinians.
Palestine is also a region- Israel and Palestine are both in the historic region of Palestine.
Though there absolutely are those using the phrase who mean it in a sense of "Genocide the Jews, Palestine-State Uber Alles", hence the controversy and calls for others to find a less vague phrase, the bulk of those using it don't carry any connotations of a one or two state solution. They just want Palestine (the entire region) to be free.

'Free' too is awfully vague in wording- North Korea is 'Free' according to the sense of the word used by the genocidal nuts and those on the right who want to smear all pro-Palestinian folks as the same.
Its absolutely not a free country according to many other definitions.

So you were lying when you said?

I'm really curious about these one state chants. I've never heard of them.

After all this did happen in Britain.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andy-mcdonald-suspended-labour-israel-palestine-b2438609.html

Labour MP Andy McDonald suspended over 'between the river and the sea' Pro-Palestine speech
Some believe the slogan is antisemitic and calls for the destruction of Israel but pro-Palestinian protesters have contested this definition

So perhaps would better be described as you have heard it but don't agree with the interpretation.

[Tamas]

I've certainly heard from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Is that all that is being referred to with chants (seemed to imply more than one) calling for a Palestine ruled one state solution? (it doesn't)
As that seems very off.

The phrase "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" certainly does imply a one-state solution.  You cannot get a Palestine "from the river to the sea" without eliminating the non-Palestine between the river and the sea.  A look at a map of the Middle East will demonstrate that for you.

The trouble is the multiple meanings of the word Palestine.

Palestine is a 'country'- the West Bank and Gaza, the areas 'ran' by the Palestinians.
Palestine is also a region- Israel and Palestine are both in the historic region of Palestine.
Though there absolutely are those using the phrase who mean it in a sense of "Genocide the Jews, Palestine-State Uber Alles", hence the controversy and calls for others to find a less vague phrase, the bulk of those using it don't carry any connotations of a one or two state solution. They just want Palestine (the entire region) to be free.

'Free' too is awfully vague in wording- North Korea is 'Free' according to the sense of the word used by the genocidal nuts and those on the right who want to smear all pro-Palestinian folks as the same.
Its absolutely not a free country according to many other definitions.

Such lawyering is beneath you. The origin of the chant is obvious and the best defense people chanting it can have is stupidity and ignorance of the larger context of what they think they are protesting about.

[Josquius]

So you were lying when you said?

Nope. I quite logically didn't make the connection between that one well known phrase and your claim of multiple chants calling specifically for a one state outcome under Palestinian rule.

I've certainly heard from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.
Is that all that is being referred to with chants (seemed to imply more than one) calling for a Palestine ruled one state solution? (it doesn't)
As that seems very off.

The phrase "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" certainly does imply a one-state solution.  You cannot get a Palestine "from the river to the sea" without eliminating the non-Palestine between the river and the sea.  A look at a map of the Middle East will demonstrate that for you.

The trouble is the multiple meanings of the word Palestine.

Palestine is a 'country'- the West Bank and Gaza, the areas 'ran' by the Palestinians.
Palestine is also a region- Israel and Palestine are both in the historic region of Palestine.
Though there absolutely are those using the phrase who mean it in a sense of "Genocide the Jews, Palestine-State Uber Alles", hence the controversy and calls for others to find a less vague phrase, the bulk of those using it don't carry any connotations of a one or two state solution. They just want Palestine (the entire region) to be free.

'Free' too is awfully vague in wording- North Korea is 'Free' according to the sense of the word used by the genocidal nuts and those on the right who want to smear all pro-Palestinian folks as the same.
Its absolutely not a free country according to many other definitions.

Such lawyering is beneath you. The origin of the chant is obvious and the best defense people chanting it can have is stupidity and ignorance of the larger context of what they think they are protesting about.

Seriously?
Rather than just accept that it means different things to different people, indeed it seems purposefully designed/evolved to be so,  the more logical answer to you is that thousands are out protesting and they don't know what they want and they are all actually in favour of whatever the most evil 10% amongst them want?

I 100% agree with the idea of a free Palestine in its entirety. I 100% disagree with the idea of genocide.
That there are evil fuckers on both sides of the conflict who wouldn't be happy until all of the other are completely dead should somehow mean...I don't think freedom is good?

As to the origin of the chant... Don't confuse the historic chants of All of Palestine is Jewish/Arab with this more recent invention

[grumbler]

The trouble is the multiple meanings of the word Palestine.

Palestine is a 'country'- the West Bank and Gaza, the areas 'ran' by the Palestinians.
Palestine is also a region- Israel and Palestine are both in the historic region of Palestine.

This is a meaningless quibble.  There is no "country" called Palestine that does not include Israel.  In any case, there is no "from the river to the sea" that is compatible with the existence of Israel.

Though there absolutely are those using the phrase who mean it in a sense of "Genocide the Jews, Palestine-State Uber Alles", hence the controversy and calls for others to find a less vague phrase, the bulk of those using it don't carry any connotations of a one or two state solution. They just want Palestine (the entire region) to be free.

There is no direct correlation between the concept of a multi-ethnic single-state Palestine and "genocide the Jews."  This is a false dichotomy.  The phrase clearly does refer to a single state (else "free" from what?) but does not imply (nor do most of its adherents support) an Islamic state of Palestine.

'Free' too is awfully vague in wording- North Korea is 'Free' according to the sense of the word used by the genocidal nuts and those on the right who want to smear all pro-Palestinian folks as the same.
Its absolutely not a free country according to many other definitions.

"The fact that "free" has many meanings, depending on context, does not make its meaning here subject to multiple interpretations.  "Free" in this context is clearly "free from Israeli rule" and the inordinate influence of Judaism in the laws of the hoped-for country.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is not necessarily a call for violence, genocide, or whatever.  It is a call for the destruction of Israel, and no amount of word-wrangling can get around that.  However, it is also a maximalist position, akin to the Israeli governments position that "from the river to the sea," Palestine will be free of Palestinians.

[Josquius]

This is a meaningless quibble.  There is no "country" called Palestine that does not include Israel. 

Eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

Its quite the mess with the Fatah/Hamas split and continued Israeli oppression, but the two state solution isn't out of nowhere.

In any case, there is no "from the river to the sea" that is compatible with the existence of Israel.

I've heard some frame it as River=West Bank and Sea= Gaza.
Its from the river to the sea, no mention of all inclusive. Though generally the rights of Palestinians in Israel are also included in the call- and then there's the big problem of illegally seized lands today Jewish held within Israel and compensation.

There is no direct correlation between the concept of a multi-ethnic single-state Palestine and "genocide the Jews."  This is a false dichotomy.  The phrase clearly does refer to a single state (else "free" from what?) but does not imply (nor do most of its adherents support) an Islamic state of Palestine.

'Free' too is awfully vague in wording- North Korea is 'Free' according to the sense of the word used by the genocidal nuts and those on the right who want to smear all pro-Palestinian folks as the same.
Its absolutely not a free country according to many other definitions.

"The fact that "free" has many meanings, depending on context, does not make its meaning here subject to multiple interpretations.  "Free" in this context is clearly "free from Israeli rule" and the inordinate influence of Judaism in the laws of the hoped-for country.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is not necessarily a call for violence, genocide, or whatever.  It is a call for the destruction of Israel, and no amount of word-wrangling can get around that.  However, it is also a maximalist position, akin to the Israeli governments position that "from the river to the sea," Palestine will be free of Palestinians.

No. This would be the separate, historically popular from the river to the sea Palestine is Arab/Jewish.

And no. Of course its not a call for the 'destruction' of Israel. Not in the slightest.
You do get some on the Israeli right who'd argue the sort of changes freedom would entail would amount to the destruction of Israel (equal rights for Arabs? Madness) but from my point of view and the point of view of many of the people far more invested in this than me...not really.
Freedom and justice doesn't have to come at the expense of others.

I would say the ideal dream-world situation is that 'Israel' is 'destroyed' as in there is no nation called Israel, merely one united region-wide multi-ethnic Palestine. But realistically you'd be looking at a confederation structure at best and getting rid of the name Israel is such a non-issue it isn't worth bothering with.
Certainly in terms of the Israeli people, their rights, and so on, there should be no suggestion of damaging this. And indeed from the majority of people calling for Palestinian rights there isn't.

Palestine should be free.
This means both Palestine the region (equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel, justice for past land seizures for non-Israeli Palestinians) and Palestine the state (let it be a free country rather than a mostly occupied and continuously whittled away colony?)
The specifics differ from person to person though inherent in the slogan and according to most pro-Palestine people (obviously cunts do exist), neither involves any actual changes to Israeli freedom (ignoring their nutters.)


(now lets watch the selective quoting and spinning to come from some here)

[garbon]

Perhaps they mean free from Hamas, something I think we could all get behind.