Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

It is based on the lie that the Israelis are colonists and settlers. Well I guess all those Jews fleeing ethnic cleansing in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Turkey...and others are just like colonists in the Americas? That is fucking convenient for Arab nationalists isn't it? Ethnic cleansing when done by Muslims? Fine. Get those dirty Jews. They are all colonists who don't deserve to live there anyway. Hell what about all the Palestinian Jews who suffered brutal pogroms before they joined the Zionists for protection? You don't hear that a significant number of Palestinians were Jewish at one point do you? No. All Palestinians are Muslims a

1: Two wrongs don't make a right.
2: you might want to check the timeline on mass Jewish emigration from the Muslim world. It was after 1948.

Jos, the difficulty with your position is that, as Grumbler first pointed out to you, the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free" is used by many who chant it, including supporters of Hamas, to mean the eradication of the state of Israel.  It can also mean free in the sense of equal rights but while many academics have pointed out this meaning, they largely also concede that the first meaning is often the one meant by those who chant it.

The problem with my position is... The facts that are my position? That it's a slogan used by many groups and the genocidal nutters are in a minority?
And that it's controversy is down to it's vagueness and also being used by the dodgy groups to mean something different to the norm?

If the bumper-sticker-thinkers had thought for two seconds about their bumper-sticker slogan, they'd have made it read "Palestinians will be free" to obviate the inevitable conclusion of bystanders that they are referring to a Palestine that stretches from the river to the sea.  Only their most slavish apologists even attempt to justify the phrase as using something other than the usual definitions of "river," "sea" and "Palestine."

Except I'm a neutral on Israel/Palestine. I've just done what others are unwilling to and paid the most minimal of attention to what the pro Palestinian protestors actually say.
Countless direct comments from them  out there where they explicitly state what they stand for and it's not the same thing as the Islamic  extremists at all.
It's fascinating how keen people are to tell other people what they actually believe on this.
Criticise the optics by all means. But don't insist you know peoples beliefs better than they do themselves.

What people think when they say "From the river to the sea"

What Josquius thinks it means
 

I have no idea what you even mean here.
That second image looks more like the sort of 1984 nonsense Israel apologists come up with "The Palestinians, already have a bunch of states: Jordan for instance".

[Razgovory]

It was a joke.

[Barrister]

I feel like this is the whole "defund the police" debate all over again.

I feel like there probably are some good-meaning people who use the phrase "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be  Free!" to talk about human rights for Palestinians.  That being said, it is clear the large majority of people using that phrase use it to mean the elimination of the state of Israel.

Just like when "defund the police" was a big phrase - some no doubt used it as a way of arguing to reform the police.  But it was quite clear that many/most meant it 100% literally - get rid of the police.

[Razgovory]

I feel like this is the whole "defund the police" debate all over again.

I feel like there probably are some good-meaning people who use the phrase "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be  Free!" to talk about human rights for Palestinians.  That being said, it is clear the large majority of people using that phrase use it to mean the elimination of the state of Israel.

Just like when "defund the police" was a big phrase - some no doubt used it as a way of arguing to reform the police.  But it was quite clear that many/most meant it 100% literally - get rid of the police.

I keep thinking that as well.

[DGuller]

In both cases, there were the people who were chanting the slogan, and then there was an entirely different group of people patronizingly reinterpreting the slogan to explain what the people chanting the slogan meant.

[crazy canuck]

The problem with my position is... The facts that are my position? That it's a slogan used by many groups and the genocidal nutters are in a minority?

Why do you think the people who chant it thinking it means the eradication of Israel are in a minority? 

[crazy canuck]

It is based on the lie that the Israelis are colonists and settlers. Well I guess all those Jews fleeing ethnic cleansing in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Turkey...and others are just like colonists in the Americas? That is fucking convenient for Arab nationalists isn't it? Ethnic cleansing when done by Muslims? Fine. Get those dirty Jews. They are all colonists who don't deserve to live there anyway. Hell what about all the Palestinian Jews who suffered brutal pogroms before they joined the Zionists for protection? You don't hear that a significant number of Palestinians were Jewish at one point do you? No. All Palestinians are Muslims and Christians just coincidentally....

And believe me the Palestinians and the others know this history. They know that these are the people they drove from their homes. They just hope their supporters in the West and elsewhere are too stupid and ignorant to do their basic homework or don't care and just hate Jews as well.

So, you know, if you want me to think you are not some nationalists far right nutcase, at least acknowledge who at least half the Israelis are first.

That doesn't excuse the Israelis own bullshit and the actions of the Netanyahu government of course, but it amazes me how so many are eager to be chumps and tools.

Why does Israel itself refer to the people who live in settlements built in Palestinian terrorities as "settlers"?

[Josquius]

I feel like this is the whole "defund the police" debate all over again.

I feel like there probably are some good-meaning people who use the phrase "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be  Free!" to talk about human rights for Palestinians.  That being said, it is clear the large majority of people using that phrase use it to mean the elimination of the state of Israel.

On what basis do you say this?
What evidence is there to suggest of the hundreds of thousands at these marches that the majority, generally pretty soft middle class urban lefty sorts, go way beyond the pale of acceptable beliefs and want genocide?

[Razgovory]

I feel like this is the whole "defund the police" debate all over again.

I feel like there probably are some good-meaning people who use the phrase "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be  Free!" to talk about human rights for Palestinians.  That being said, it is clear the large majority of people using that phrase use it to mean the elimination of the state of Israel.

On what basis do you say this?
What evidence is there to suggest of the hundreds of thousands at these marches that the majority, generally pretty soft middle class urban lefty sorts, go way beyond the pale of acceptable beliefs and want genocide?

  Cause the "pretty soft middle class urban lefty sorts", are the not the core pro-Palestinian movement.  The core pro-Palestinian movement is Middle Eastern Muslims.

[Jacob]

Why does Israel itself refer to the people who live in settlements built in Palestinian terrorities are "settlers"?

I don't think anyone disagrees that the settlers on the West Bank are settlers.

The argument is whether all Israeli Jews in Israel are "colonialist settlers", with the unspoken addendum (sometimes spoken) that therefore their presence is unjust and they should be expelled.

[The Minsky Moment]

The West Bank is non-Israeli land under military occupation. Calling the Israeli civilian presence there "settlements" is euphemistically polite.  It's a flagrant violation of international law.

[grumbler]

On what basis do you say this?
What evidence is there to suggest of the hundreds of thousands at these marches that the majority, generally pretty soft middle class urban lefty sorts, go way beyond the pale of acceptable beliefs and want genocide?

What evidence is there that suggests that everyone who wants to see Israel absorbed into a multi-religious secular state with the rest of Palestine must want to accomplish that via genocide?

Some supporters of Palestine from the river to the sea do, indeed, propose an effective genocide combined with ethnic cleansing and an Islamic state. Hamas, for instance. Others, and I suspect that this is the bulk of the abolish-Israel protesters in the West, think that there can be some kind of peaceful melding of Israel into Palestine.  Still others chant the slogan and deny that it has anything to do with rivers or seas or even Palestine proper, but insist that it is instead some kind of promotion of equal rights for Palestinians.

The bumper-sticker slogan bandied about is not actually useful in conveying anything except angst among the supporters of Israel.  Not even most of those using it are thinking about what it actually says.

[Josquius]

Why do you think the people who chant it thinking it means the eradication of Israel are in a minority?

I've gone over this quite a bit. You've direct man on the street interviews with the people at marches, writers of articles in papers and online, and then there's just the basic logic that it would be completely out of step with all the other positions of these demographics.

I feel like this is the whole "defund the police" debate all over again.

I feel like there probably are some good-meaning people who use the phrase "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be  Free!" to talk about human rights for Palestinians.  That being said, it is clear the large majority of people using that phrase use it to mean the elimination of the state of Israel.

On what basis do you say this?
What evidence is there to suggest of the hundreds of thousands at these marches that the majority, generally pretty soft middle class urban lefty sorts, go way beyond the pale of acceptable beliefs and want genocide?

  Cause the "pretty soft middle class urban lefty sorts", are the not the core pro-Palestinian movement.  The core pro-Palestinian movement is Middle Eastern Muslims.

We aren't talking about the "core pro-Palestinian movement". We are talking about the hundreds of thousands who turn up to protests in London et al and what the majority of people at these events want.

Though even looking at people in the middle east, I do think you over-estimate quite how blood thirsty general views are (though they've likely took a huge backwards step in recent months).  A sizable chunk all for kill the Jews absolutely, but things were steadily over time coming more towards finding an actual practical solution.

[Admiral Yi]

Its not common sense to come to the conclusion that when hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are generally pretty progressive, are using a vague slogan about freedom in part of the world where (the shit bags of) one people are currently actively oppressing another, they probably don't mean "Genocide everyone from the group doing the bombing"?

Even if we imagine there's absolutely zero evidence either way its usually common sense not to assume the worst possible interpretation. Combined with all else...yeah. Most people at Pro Palestinian marches don't want to wipe out the Israelis. Its an incredibly low bar we're talking about here so its mad to assume the majority of them don't even meet that.

Leaving aside the question of whether or not Palestinians or Western Arabs are "progessive," yes, it makes perfect sense that people who feel oppressed will feel violence is their best option.  That has been true of the vast majority of independence movements throughout history and of "people's revolutions" such as the French and Russian revolutions.  You can count the Gandhis and Mandelas of the world on one hand.

Only two interpretations of the chant have been mentioned.  One makes the Arabs look good and one makes them look bad.  It is not illogical to believe one has higher probability if there is evidence suggesting that is so.

You say they've picked it up from Hamas... how and when?

I found this an interesting writeup (assuming its reliable, anything conflicting then do share)
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/

It certainly does make sense that Hamas et al would usually be using Arabic slogans and that this one would have its origin in more genocidal earlier slogans of Jews and Arabs. But it says nothing about its current usage.

As said last time this discussion came up, that some Jews feel threatened by it I can understand and do feel that a less vague slogan should be found- if it risks a break of solidarity with more extreme groups then thats a good thing- but I don't accept for a second that everyone saying it takes the extremist line.

I have no idea how people picked it up from Hamas.  Probably the same way you imagine they picked it up from some 1948 PR statement no one has ever heard of before.

I liked your article.  It made sense.  People don't put a lot of thought into protest slogans.  They get jacked up and start shouting them if someone else does.  But now they've had some time to think about what it means and possibly realized that a group that is claiming victimhood and demanding third party assistance doesn't maximize compassion by chanting about kicking all the Jews out of the area.  I certainly haven't heard it being chanted a great deal since the beginning.

[garbon]

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/

we dreamed with Palestinians of freedom because we know that none of us will be free until Palestine is free.