Israel-Hamas War 2023

[DGuller]

But my understanding is the Orthodox Jewish community in NYC proper is actually much more clannish / sectarian than they seem from outside observers. I think Hasidic Jews in general belong to something like 200 different sects, some of which have extremely opposing views and outright enmity with other sects of Hasidim.

Yes, the Orthodox Jews are Jewish.

[Josquius]

It is a curious thing that the Orthodox Jews in Israel tend towards being the scummiest far right ultra nationalist shit bags whilst in the west the Hardei are pretty famously anti-zionist.

[Sheilbh]

That's a very niche and very unpopular group within the ultra-Orthodox. I think they're basically the equivalent of, say, fundamentalist Mormons in terms of size and popularity within the wider community.

[The Minsky Moment]

That's a very niche and very unpopular group within the ultra-Orthodox. I think they're basically the equivalent of, say, fundamentalist Mormons in terms of size and popularity within the wider community.

The history is a little more complicated.

Pre-war the Haredi were overwhelmingly anti-Zionist and against the foundation of an Israeli state on religious grounds. In the wake of Nazism and the Holocaust, many Haredi moderated their views and took a more "hands off" approach to Zionism -they would not actively oppose Israel but would not actively engage with the state.  As more time passed, and the Haredi became more enmeshed in the state as welfare recipients, as participants in political coalitions and through influence on state institutions, so that now they are de facto pro-Zionist even if they continue to have reservations about the secular character of state institutions.

Around the time the majority of Haredi moderated their anti-Zionist stance, a dissident group broke off to kept to the older, traditional anti-Zionist view.  The NK people demonstrating above trace back to that group.  They can fairly represent themselves as being loyal to the "true" traditional faith, for whatever that is worth.

My view is that they are both pretty nuts, although in somewhat different ways.  The difference is that the NK people are nuts but marginalized and thus mostly harmless.  The nationalist Haredi OTOH have a lot of clout and pose a danger to Israeli's standing as a civilized, secular democracy.

[crazy canuck]

Their concerns that Zionism would redefine the Jewish identity was not wrong.

[Jacob]

My understanding of the Haredi anti-Zionist stance is that the objection is religious - basically when the Messiah shows up, the Jews will return to their homeland. The Messiah has not shown up, therefore it is against God for the Jews to establish Israel.

[crazy canuck]

According to Wiki that was also part of it, but as I understand it, they were concerned about what a Jewish nation state would do to the understanding of Jewish identity.  And again, they were not wrong.

Things have gotten to the point where being anti-Zionist is antisemitic. 

[Valmy]

According to Wiki that was also part of it, but as I understand it, they were concerned about what a Jewish nation state would do to the understanding of Jewish identity.  And again, they were not wrong.

Things have gotten to the point where being anti-Zionist is antisemitic. 

I think you have it backwards. So many anti-semites are pretending to merely be anti-Zionist that it is mudding up the waters.

[Josquius]

According to Wiki that was also part of it, but as I understand it, they were concerned about what a Jewish nation state would do to the understanding of Jewish identity.  And again, they were not wrong.

Things have gotten to the point where being anti-Zionist is antisemitic. 

I think you have it backwards. So many anti-semites are pretending to merely be anti-Zionist that it is mudding up the waters.

.

My impression is very much the opposite.
The groups that would traditionally make the core of anti semites are weirdly today very pro zionist since it's muslims that are the new enemy number one in their minds.

[Razgovory]

According to Wiki that was also part of it, but as I understand it, they were concerned about what a Jewish nation state would do to the understanding of Jewish identity.  And again, they were not wrong.

Things have gotten to the point where being anti-Zionist is antisemitic. 

I think you have it backwards. So many anti-semites are pretending to merely be anti-Zionist that it is mudding up the waters.

.

My impression is very much the opposite.
The groups that would traditionally make the core of anti semites are weirdly today very pro zionist since it's muslims that are the new enemy number one in their minds.

I'd say the bult of antisemites are Muslims.

[Threviel]

Yeah, anti-semitism seems absolutely rampant amongst muslims.

[Josquius]

[HVC]

Yeah, anti-semitism seems absolutely rampant amongst muslims.

Finally Europeans and muslims have something in common

[Threviel]

You can't be serious?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam

Some quotes:

In 2014 the Anti-Defamation League published a global survey of worldwide antisemitic attitudes, reporting that in the Middle East, 74% of adults agreed with a majority of the survey's eleven antisemitic propositions, including that "Jews have too much power in international financial markets" and that "Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars."

In 2010, the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation after one year of research, revealed that antisemitism was common among Norwegian Muslims. Teachers at schools with large shares of Muslims revealed that Muslim students often "praise or admire Adolf Hitler for his killing of Jews", that "Jew-hate is legitimate within vast groups of Muslim students" and that "Muslims laugh or command [teachers] to stop when trying to educate about the Holocaust".[241][242][243]

According to British Muslim journalist Mehdi Hasan, "anti-Semitism isn't just tolerated in some sections of the British Muslim community; it's routine and commonplace".[244] A 2016 survey of 5,446 adult Britons, part of a report titled Anti-Semitism in contemporary Great Britain that was conducted by the London-based Institute for Jewish Policy Research, found that the prevalence of antisemitic views among Muslims was two to four times higher than the rest of the population,[245] 55% of British Muslims held at least one antisemitic view, and that there was a correlation between Muslim religiosity and antisemitism.[246] A 2020 poll found that 45% of British Muslims hold a generally favourable view of British Jews, and 18% hold a negative view.[247]

According to a 2012 survey, 18% of Turks in Germany believe that Jews are inferior human beings.[228][229] A similar study found that most of Germany's native born Muslim youth and children of immigrants have antisemitic views.

[Josquius]

You can't be serious?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam

Some quotes:

In 2014 the Anti-Defamation League published a global survey of worldwide antisemitic attitudes, reporting that in the Middle East, 74% of adults agreed with a majority of the survey's eleven antisemitic propositions, including that "Jews have too much power in international financial markets" and that "Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars."

In 2010, the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation after one year of research, revealed that antisemitism was common among Norwegian Muslims. Teachers at schools with large shares of Muslims revealed that Muslim students often "praise or admire Adolf Hitler for his killing of Jews", that "Jew-hate is legitimate within vast groups of Muslim students" and that "Muslims laugh or command [teachers] to stop when trying to educate about the Holocaust".[241][242][243]

According to British Muslim journalist Mehdi Hasan, "anti-Semitism isn't just tolerated in some sections of the British Muslim community; it's routine and commonplace".[244] A 2016 survey of 5,446 adult Britons, part of a report titled Anti-Semitism in contemporary Great Britain that was conducted by the London-based Institute for Jewish Policy Research, found that the prevalence of antisemitic views among Muslims was two to four times higher than the rest of the population,[245] 55% of British Muslims held at least one antisemitic view, and that there was a correlation between Muslim religiosity and antisemitism.[246] A 2020 poll found that 45% of British Muslims hold a generally favourable view of British Jews, and 18% hold a negative view.[247]

According to a 2012 survey, 18% of Turks in Germany believe that Jews are inferior human beings.[228][229] A similar study found that most of Germany's native born Muslim youth and children of immigrants have antisemitic views.

I have no idea what you're talking about.