Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

None of those people will rule over me.

[crazy canuck]

Human animals?

Dehumanizing those you are about to murder is the long standing first play.  You can see how effective the tactic is by reading some of the posts in this thread.

[crazy canuck]

Also Ynet is reporting that the head of Egyptian intelligence warned Netanyahu ten days before the attack that "something unusual, a terrible operation" was about to take place around Gaza and this was dismissed by Netanyahu who, reportedly, said that the IDF was focused on fighting terror in the West Bank where attacks were actively being carried out.

Netanyahu's office has called the report "a lie".

Again I think the mood of national unity is going to be short-lived. It will be political very quickly (in a way I think this is possibly, like the protests, a sign of the health of Israeli democracy despite all the concerning stuff). We've already seen Haaretz explicitly blame Netanyahu. I don't think this will be the end of reports about how and why the focus was on the West Bank. At the same time Netanyahu and his coalition were attacking the security apparatus as being infected by the left because of Shin Bet, Mossad etc leaders saying the divisions over judicial reforms were weakening Israeli society and security - they were not just causing the protests but also reservists refusing call ups. I think the coalition will return to that line of attack.

I suspect this means we might not see a national unity government - in practical terms I think this war will be prosecuted by what, reportedly, Netanyahu considers to be a dysfunctional security cabinet which includes extremists on the far right. I think that is concerning. I also think Israeli politics will be very combustible as these types of stories come forward. From the outside I can't see how Netanyahu can survive, but I think we've all thought that before - but I think this may entrench further and deeper which is not good either.

Oof,  but I disagree with your conclusions.  Netanyahu will find a negligent subordinate to blame and will question the loyalty to the state of Israel if any calls for his removal.

Lots of people are going to be willing to look past the blunders and atrocities he going to commit.

Just read the cheering section he has in this thread to gauge the support he will have at home.

Even JR is willing to give a blank cheque to him in the name of retribution.

That strategy has been disastrous for both the US in the past.  But it seems humanity is not capable of anything more than that base response.

[Josquius]

None of those people will rule over me.

I hope you're right.
But their colleagues sort of already are. Didn't the recent funding tranche for Ukraine fall through because of them?

[mongers]

On the subject of translations of what the Israeli PM has said, this offical page might be useful, though I don't think it will carry everything said to journalists for instance:

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/prime_ministers_office/govil-landing-page

Correction:Statement by PM Netanyahu
Government
The 37th Government
Publish Date
07.10.2023
Updated date
08.10.2023
Correction:Statement by PM Netanyahu 
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this evening, at the Kirya in Tel Aviv:

"Dear citizens of Israel,

This morning, on Shabbat and a holiday, Hamas invaded Israeli territory and murdered innocent citizens including children and the elderly. Hamas has started a brutal and evil war.

We will be victorious in this war despite an unbearable price. This is a very difficult day for all of us.

Hamas wants to murder us all. This is an enemy that murders children and mothers in their homes, in their beds, an enemy that abducts the elderly, children and young women, that slaughters and massacres our citizens, including children, who simply went out to enjoy the holiday.

What happened today is unprecedented in Israel – and I will see to it that it does not happen again. The entire government is behind this decision.

The IDF will immediately use all its strength to destroy Hamas's capabilities. We will destroy them and we will forcefully avenge this dark day that they have forced on the State of Israel and its citizens. As Bialik wrote (https://allpoetry.com/On-The-Slaughter): 'Revenge for the blood of a little child has yet been devised by Satan'.

All of the places which Hamas is deployed, hiding and operating in, that wicked city, we will turn them into rubble.

I say to the residents of Gaza: Leave now because we will operate forcefully everywhere.

At this hour, the IDF is clearing the terrorists out of the last communities. They are going community by community, house by house, and are restoring our control.

I embrace and send heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families whose loved ones were murdered today in cold blood and endless brutality.

We are all praying for the well-being of the wounded and all those who are being held hostage. I say to Hamas: You are responsible for their well-being. Israel will settle accounts with anyone who harms one hair on their heads.

I appeal to the residents of the south: We all stand alongside you. We are all proud of your heroism and your fighting.

To our beloved IDF soldiers, police officers and security forces personnel, remember that you are the continuation of the heroes of the Jewish people, of Joshua, Judah Maccabee and the heroes of 1948 and of all of Israel's wars. You are now fighting for the home and future of us all. We are all with you. We all love you. We all salute you.

To the medical and rescue teams, and the many volunteers who came out in force today in a long list of places, the people of Israel salute you. With your spirit, we will overcome our enemies.
 
Today, I spoke with US President Biden and with other world leaders in order to ensure freedom of action for Israel in the continuation of the campaign. I thank President Biden for his strong and clear words (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/07/statement-from-president-joe-biden-condemning-terrorist-attacks-in-israel/). I thank the President of France, the Prime Minister of Great Britain and many other leaders for their unreserved support for Israel.

I now appeal to all citizens of Israel.

We stand together in this campaign.

This war will take time. It will be difficult. Challenging days are ahead of us. However, I can promise one thing: With the help of G-d, the forces that we all have in common and our faith in the Eternal One of Israel, we will win."

[OttoVonBismarck]

Oof,  but I disagree with your conclusions.  Netanyahu will find a negligent subordinate to blame and will question the loyalty to the state of Israel if any calls for his removal.

I think the problem with holding Netanyahu accountable, is the brutality of the Hamas attacks and the level of outrage they spark, it will help "paper over" a lot of Netanyahu's troubles. This sort of environment is really the "perfect storm" of benefit for Israel's far right to be able to get away with things they have always wanted.

[The Minsky Moment]

I do not know what the "human animals" phrase means either.  Most animals are not capable of the kind of willful cruelty and viciousness exhibited by the Hamas Einsatzgruppen.  Sadly only human beings seem capable of such degradation.

[OttoVonBismarck]

FWIW I did say I wonder if "Human animals" is a problem of translation from Hebrew.

[Sheilbh]

FWIW I did say I wonder if "Human animals" is a problem of translation from Hebrew.

I've seen "animals", "savages" and "barbarians" so I think that's probably right.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Israeli military announces launch of largest airstrikes on Hamas in Gaza
The Israeli military announces it will carry out one of the largest airstrikes ever against Hamas in the besieged Gaza Strip.

Israeli media also reported that Israel has hit 1000 targets in Gaza, adding that the military has announced it will continue airstrikes on Gaza, even if at the cost of harming Israeli captives in the enclave.

The brutality of it is, if you're going to prosecute a war here the 150 (or w/e the number is) of hostages have to just be considered KIA. You can either prosecute a war or you can worry about getting them home, you can't realistically do both. I'm sure Israel will try to rescue any that they conceivably can, but the reality is the opportunity to do so will be unlikely.

[PJL]

Israeli military announces launch of largest airstrikes on Hamas in Gaza
The Israeli military announces it will carry out one of the largest airstrikes ever against Hamas in the besieged Gaza Strip.

Israeli media also reported that Israel has hit 1000 targets in Gaza, adding that the military has announced it will continue airstrikes on Gaza, even if at the cost of harming Israeli captives in the enclave.

The brutality of it is, if you're going to prosecute a war here the 150 (or w/e the number is) of hostages have to just be considered KIA. You can either prosecute a war or you can worry about getting them home, you can't realistically do both. I'm sure Israel will try to rescue any that they conceivably can, but the reality is the opportunity to do so will be unlikely.

Yeah, I think at this point you should assume all the hostages in Gaza are as good as dead. If any can be rescued all well and good, but best not to keep your hopes up on that front. The only complicating factor here would be the foreign hostages being kept - this may be a restraining factor on Israeli actions against Gaza.

[mongers]

Israeli military announces launch of largest airstrikes on Hamas in Gaza
The Israeli military announces it will carry out one of the largest airstrikes ever against Hamas in the besieged Gaza Strip.

Israeli media also reported that Israel has hit 1000 targets in Gaza, adding that the military has announced it will continue airstrikes on Gaza, even if at the cost of harming Israeli captives in the enclave.

The brutality of it is, if you're going to prosecute a war here the 150 (or w/e the number is) of hostages have to just be considered KIA. You can either prosecute a war or you can worry about getting them home, you can't realistically do both. I'm sure Israel will try to rescue any that they conceivably can, but the reality is the opportunity to do so will be unlikely.

Yeah, I think at this point you should assume all the hostages in Gaza are as good as dead. If any can be rescued all well and good, but best not to keep your hopes up on that front. The only complicating factor here would be the foreign hostages being kept - this may be a restraining factor on Israeli actions against Gaza.

I doubt it, at this stage I think what Otto said is right, even for foreign governments.

The only hope for the hostages is if the Qataris can pull something out of the hat and quickly, within the next few days. And I don't think that's likely.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Like once you've shifted to a declared war I think hostages are just viewed in a different way. Like imagine the Germans took 150 civilian hostages after the Allies landed at Normandy, would that have changed Allied war planning one iota? No. Because in a war you can't subject your plans to the enemy's desires. I think the hostages indicate Hamas thought the Israeli response would be more limited as it has been in the past, which I think may end up proving to be a miscalculation.

[Legbiter]

Also Ynet is reporting that the head of Egyptian intelligence warned Netanyahu ten days before the attack that "something unusual, a terrible operation" was about to take place around Gaza and this was dismissed by Netanyahu who, reportedly, said that the IDF was focused on fighting terror in the West Bank where attacks were actively being carried out.

Netanyahu's office has called the report "a lie".

Again I think the mood of national unity is going to be short-lived.

Yeah the accusation by several Israelis on twitter is that the bulk of the IDF forces that normally would be close to Gaza were deployed to the West Bank to keep that settler party in his coalition happy. 

Netanyahu has shown himself to be completely incompetent. The super high-tech fence was first blinded by drones dropping grenades on the observation towers then systematically demolished in over a couple dozen places and there were no deployed formations on hand to quickly respond once the border guards were overwhelmed. Just overall a monumental fuckup. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

Qassam Brigades threatens to execute Israeli captives
Hamas's Qassam Brigades has threatened to execute Israeli captives if Israel continues to bombard and kill civilians in Gaza.

"Any targeting of innocent civilians without warning will be met regretfully by executing one of the captives in our custody, and we will be forced to broadcast this execution," said Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas' Qassam Brigades.

"We regret this decision but we hold the Zionist enemy and their leadership the responsibility for this," he said.

IMO when this happens it is a nail in the coffin for any chance Hamas has in the PR battle, this will make Hamas basically "ISIS" in the minds of most Western media etc, and give Israel virtual carte-blanche to do whatever the fuck it wants in Gaza.