Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

That's not a technicality.  It's bullshit.  You know that.  There are some far right people in Israel's government.  But Muslims still work and live in Israel.  They have the right to vote, the right to speech and all the rights of modern democracy.  The Israeli government for all it's faults didn't just shoot political enemies in the legs and throw them off buildings.

I suggest you read more the discrimination of this minority. 

I also suggest you read about the treatment of Palestinians who need to work in Israel, or simply cross the territory to reach other parts of their fragmented reality.

Is anything I have written false?  A Muslim living in Israel has rights.  A Jew living in Palestine won't be living very long.  The Arabs of the Gaza strip used to be fairly prosperous.  They had a higher standard of living the Arabs of Jordan.  Then Arafat launched the Second Intifada.

[Razgovory]

It's not bullshit at all. It's a fact. Arabs are a semitic people.
Obviously nobody actually uses anti semitism like that. But twisting your words in jest does make them more true than you know.
It's ignorant in the extreme to pretend the entire problem and reason there isn't peace in the region lies on the Palestinian side and with Palestinian extremists (which evidently in your view is a redundant thing to say)

You really ought to read up about Palestine if you think this "there's normal people in Israel, they aren't all nazis!" is some kind of defence of their government.

Arabs speak a Semitic language.  Anti-Semitism refers explicitly to the Jewish race.  It never referred to language only race.  When the Europeans were labeling the Jews Semites they did not, by and large, speak a Semitic language. Most Jews spoke the language of the country they lived in or Yidish which is an Indo-European language.  But if you'd prefer I can just use the term Jew-hater.  That adequately describes the Palestinians.  Something like 93% of Palestinians are antisemtic.  I mean Jew Haters.

Do you really believe that the Israeli government which affords rights to minorities and them full citizenship is equivalent to Hamas run Gaza which routinely kills people who disagree with it?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I can think of no people on earth who have more ardently expressed their desire to live in a shithole

I don't remember all of the Afghanis being given a choice to stay or leave.  Nor do I remember them being given a choice to live under Taliban rule.

It's not as if the West proposed a stable model of democracy free of corruption with equality for all.  We kinda dropped the ball on this country.  Again.

I guess you missed it, then. Afghanistan, a country of 40 million, with an Army of ~200k, let 50,000 insurgents decide who their government was going to be without any meaningful opposition. As far as I am concerned that is a collective decision to accept the Taliban, and I suspect most Afghans are fine with that. But, they chose it--they can live with it, and when you decide to live with the Taliban that means you don't get to be part of the nice things normal countries get.

[Josquius]

Arabs speak a Semitic language.  Anti-Semitism refers explicitly to the Jewish race.  It never referred to language only race.  When the Europeans were labeling the Jews Semites they did not, by and large, speak a Semitic language. Most Jews spoke the language of the country they lived in or Yidish which is an Indo-European language.

Race is a vague and hand wavey unscientific concept. Though it's definitely fair to say the Arabs are a semitic people. Pretty sure the term anti semitism actually came after ye olde racial pseudo scientists came up with the concept of semitic peoples (which included far more than just jews) .

We all know what anti semitism actually means despite the nerdy fun of delving into etymologies and historic pseudo science.

But if you'd prefer I can just use the term Jew-hater.

My point was Hamas aren't unique in being absolute cunts. There's plenty on the Israeli side just as bad.
They've long held disproportionate power though lately have gained far more than they ever have. Did you miss the news a few months back of Israel being rather trumpy?

That adequately describes the Palestinians.  Something like 93% of Palestinians are antisemtic.  I are Jew Haters.

Do you really believe that the Israeli government which affords rights to minorities and them full citizenship is equivalent to Hamas run Gaza which routinely kills people who disagree with it?

You're comparing the government of a democratic country that happens to be currently ran by fascists and who are having to work hard to remould it in their image  to a group of fascists who have had their own personal domain for some time now.
A more accurate comparison for hamas here would be those particular Israeli groups. You'll find many of them saying shit that really wouldn't look out of place from Islamic extremists with a few terms swapped.

[viper37]

Is anything I have written false?  A Muslim living in Israel has rights.  A Jew living in Palestine won't be living very long.  The Arabs of the Gaza strip used to be fairly prosperous.  They had a higher standard of living the Arabs of Jordan.  Then Arafat launched the Second Intifada.

There's a drastic blocus in place by Israel and Egypt.  That explains the drop in living condition.  It can't be help with the Hamas ruling the place, but it's not all about Palestinians ruling the place.

And I doubt your assertion that the Arabs of Gaza were fairly prosperous as of 2000, more than the average Jordanian.

GDP per capita in 2000 was over 1.5x that of Gaza for Jordan.
https://tradingeconomics.com/palestine/gdp-per-capita-ppp
https://tradingeconomics.com/jordan/gdp-per-capita-ppp

It certainly dropped during the 2nd Intifida, wars on your own territory tend to do that.

As for Jews living in Palestine, well, it's been tried before, living side by side with others.  It seems that once they run out of Philistines or Pagans to kill and dismember, they all turn on one another, so it's not a viable solution for anyone.

There need to be a viable Palestinian State with clear borders.  Even a hawk like Golda Meir recognized that.  Jews and Palestinians will never live together in peace inside the same country, Israelis aren't interested in granting them equal rights and be assimilated by the majority. 

Keeping them in near apartheid territories like that while constantly constricting them further, war or no war, is only leading to further conflicts like this and alienating foreign opinion against Israel - which doesn't even need that big of a push in some circles.

[Razgovory]

Race is a vague and hand wavey unscientific concept. Though it's definitely fair to say the Arabs are a semitic people. Pretty sure the term anti semitism actually came after ye olde racial pseudo scientists came up with the concept of semitic peoples (which included far more than just jews) .

Think again.  Semitic is linguistic, it was borrowed by racists specifically to refer to Jews.  The Nazis broadcast to Arabs in the 30's and 40's to encourage them to attack the Jews.  They didn't call the Arabs Semites then.  Cause quite a few race riots in the middle east.  That's one of the root causes of our problems today.

My point was Hamas aren't unique in being absolute cunts. There's plenty on the Israeli side just as bad.
They've long held disproportionate power though lately have gained far more than they ever have. Did you miss the news a few months back of Israel being rather trumpy?

Yeah, here's the problem.  "rather Trumpy" isn't the same as mass murdering dictatorship.  The far right in Israel is part of the same phenomenon in whole West.  Nigel Farange, Donald Trump, Marie Le Pen are all manifestations of it.  When Brexit passed Britain didn't become Nazi Germany.  If you take the quotes of Israeli far right they don't sound differ than the some of the more dodgy members of the Tories.  You really don't find much similar in western rhetoric Israeli like

"The time has come to kill the Jews" or encouraging people to just randomly attack Jews with knives and cleavers (the first one came from Fatah the second from Hamas)

[DGuller]

What exactly is meant by some Israelis being just as bad as Hamas?  Murdering every civilian they run across in cold blood bad?  Cheering on murdering those civilians bad?  Teaching th0ire children to cheer on murdering those civilians bad?

[Razgovory]

Is anything I have written false?  A Muslim living in Israel has rights.  A Jew living in Palestine won't be living very long.  The Arabs of the Gaza strip used to be fairly prosperous.  They had a higher standard of living the Arabs of Jordan.  Then Arafat launched the Second Intifada.

There's a drastic blocus in place by Israel and Egypt.  That explains the drop in living condition.  It can't be help with the Hamas ruling the place, but it's not all about Palestinians ruling the place.
And I doubt your assertion that the Arabs of Gaza were fairly prosperous as of 2000, more than the average Jordanian.
GDP per capita in 2000 was over 1.5x that of Gaza for Jordan.
https://tradingeconomics.com/palestine/gdp-per-capita-ppp
https://tradingeconomics.com/jordan/gdp-per-capita-ppp
It certainly dropped during the 2nd Intifida, wars on your own territory tend to do that.
As for Jews living in Palestine, well, it's been tried before, living side by side with others.  It seems that once they run out of Philistines or Pagans to kill and dismember, they all turn on one another, so it's not a viable solution for anyone.
There need to be a viable Palestinian State with clear borders.  Even a hawk like Golda Meir recognized that.  Jews and Palestinians will never live together in peace inside the same country, Israelis aren't interested in granting them equal rights and be assimilated by the majority.
Keeping them in near apartheid territories like that while constantly constricting them further, war or no war, is only leading to further conflicts like this and alienating foreign opinion against Israel - which doesn't even need that big of a push in some circles.

Got it from this

At the time of the September 1993 signing of the Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles, conditions in the territories were far better than in most Arab states – despite the steep economic decline caused by the intifada of 1987-93. But within six months of Arafat's arrival in Gaza in July 1994, the standard of living in the Strip fell by 25%, and more than half the area's residents claimed to have been happier under Israel. Even so, at the time Arafat launched his war of terrorism in September 2000, Palestinian income per capita was nearly double Syria's, more than four times Yemen's, and 10% higher than Jordan's – one of the better-off Arab states. Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.
By the time of Arafat's death in November 2004, his terrorism war had slashed this income to a fraction of its earlier levels, with real GDP per capita some 35% below the pre-September 2000 level, unemployment more than doubling, and numerous Palestinians reduced to poverty and despondency. And while Israel's suppression of the terrorism war generated a steady recovery, with the years 2007-11 even recording an average yearly growth above 8%, by mid-2014 a fully blown recession had taken hold, especially in the Gaza Strip.

https://besacenter.org/its-not-the-economy-stupid/

[Josquius]

Race is a vague and hand wavey unscientific concept. Though it's definitely fair to say the Arabs are a semitic people. Pretty sure the term anti semitism actually came after ye olde racial pseudo scientists came up with the concept of semitic peoples (which included far more than just jews) .

Think again.  Semitic is linguistic, it was borrowed by racists specifically to refer to Jews.  The Nazis broadcast to Arabs in the 30's and 40's to encourage them to attack the Jews.  They didn't call the Arabs Semites then.  Cause quite a few race riots in the middle east.  That's one of the root causes of our problems today.

You're wrong. Quickly checking up, and I don't believe I didn't remember this at first, but semetic is a really old term for (classical world) Asians. Derives from the noahs arc legend and his 3 sons going off to europe, Africa, and Asia and fathering everyone.
The linguistic use is much later. Like the very field itself. The term semitic due to its past racial relevance was reused for the language family that fit the people so labelled.
Anyway. All completely off topic. Didn't expect that one to fly over your head.

My
Yeah, here's the problem.  "rather Trumpy" isn't the same as mass murdering dictatorship.  The far right in Israel is part of the same phenomenon in whole West.  Nigel Farange, Donald Trump, Marie Le Pen are all manifestations of it.  When Brexit passed Britain didn't become Nazi Germany.  If you take the quotes of Israeli far right they don't sound differ than the some of the more dodgy members of the Tories.  You really don't find much similar in western rhetoric Israeli like

"The time has come to kill the Jews" or encouraging people to just randomly attack Jews with knives and cleavers (the first one came from Fatah the second from Hamas)

Again you have a really blinkered view of things. For a fun look at quite how horrid Israeli extremists are I recall one of louis theroux docs was on them. Like anything louis theroux worth a look.

There absolutely are plenty on the Israeli side who think Arabs should be eliminated.
They don't generally call for random attacks on Arabs as from their position of power that would be stupid. Instead they want to get the forces of the state to do it.

[viper37]

What exactly is meant by some Israelis being just as bad as Hamas?  Murdering every civilian they run across in cold blood bad?  Cheering on murdering those civilians bad?  Teaching th0ire children to cheer on murdering those civilians bad?

In November 2006, Lieberman, who described Arab members of the Knesset that meet with Hamas as "terror collaborators", called for their execution.
[...]
In remarks in the Knesset in March 2008, shortly after 6 March attack at Jerusalem's Mercaz HaRav yeshiva, Lieberman commented that "yesterday's attack can not be disconnected from the Arab MKs incitement, which we hear daily in the Knesset."^[81] Directing his comments at Arab MKs whose comments Lieberman describes as anti-Israel incitement, he added that "a new administration will be established and then we will take care of you."
[...]
In 1998, news reports stated that Lieberman suggested the bombing of the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egyptian support for Yasser Arafat.^[83][84] In 2001, reports stated that he told a group of ambassadors from the Former Soviet Union that if Egypt and Israel were ever to face off militarily again, that Israel could bomb the Aswan Dam.
[...]
Following a series of terror attacks on Israeli civilians perpetrated by Palestinian militants during a three-day period in March 2002, Lieberman proposed issuing an ultimatum to the Palestinian National Authority to halt all militant activity or face wide-ranging attacks. He said, "if it were up to me I would notify the Palestinian Authority that tomorrow at ten in the morning we would bomb all their places of business in Ramallah, for example."
[...]
In July 2003, reacting to a commitment made by then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the US, where amnesty could be given to approximately 350 Palestinian prisoners including members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, Lieberman rejected a chance to participate in the related committee and said "It would be better to drown these prisoners in the Dead Sea if possible, since that's the lowest point in the world,"
[...]
In January 2009, during the Gaza War, Lieberman argued that Israel "must continue to fight Hamas just like the United States did with the Japanese in World War II. Then, too, the occupation of the country was unnecessary."^[103] This threat has been interpreted by some media commentators, including Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, as an allusion to Hiroshima and Nagasaki and as advocacy for a nuclear strike on Gaza.
[...]
In January 2014, according to Haaretz, Lieberman would not support any peace agreement that did not include the exchange of Israeli Arab land and population. Lieberman stated: "I will not support any peace deal that will allow the return of even one Palestinian refugee to Israel."
[...]
On 8 March 2015 he stated at a conference in Herzliya:

'Whoever is with us should get everything. Whoever is against us, there's nothing else to do. We have to lift up an axe and remove his head, otherwise we won't survive here. There is no reason that Umm al-Fahm will be part of Israel.'^[108]

His party won 7 seats (5.74% of the vote) in the 2020 election.  It once had 15.  He was a member of the government after and when he made most of his inflammatory comments.

The current Prime Minister has always been opposed to the Oslo peace accord and his views are pretty clear:
They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo Accords]", "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."^[286]

Not as bad as the Hamas or the other terrorists, but clearly someone who does not believe in any kind of peace.

How do you want to negotiate any kind of agreement with someone like that?  Or someone like Lieberman?  These people represent 35% of the Israeli population.  35% who do not want peace.

[Razgovory]

Wow, 5.74% of the vote.  That's worse than I thought.

[DGuller]

Okay, one more question just to make sure we are clear on the concepts.  There are many bad things in the world, let's rank several of them.

1)  Making inflammatory comments.
2)  Killing captured members of military.
3)  Killing of civilian men.
4)  Killing of civilian women.
5)  Killing of civilian elderly.
6)  Killing of civilian children.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yeah, to put it frank--there are few if any Israelis who are "as bad as Hamas." It's like saying someone like the many far right "influencers" out there that ape borderline Nazi shit here in the United States are as "bad as real Nazis". The big difference between them and actual Nazis, is actual Nazis killed millions and millions of people.

People who use such rhetoric are, without any doubt, cause for serious concern. Especially if their rhetoric increases general tensions and violence in society. But there is still a very material difference between rabble rousers and Hamas, in that Hamas has killed many, many thousands of people over the last 30 years, and almost all of them were civilians--illegal targets under the laws of war. And importantly, they were deliberate targets.

Something that is very often obscured by people who engage in "but West just as bad" ism in all these conflicts is they simply count any civilian killed as a war crime. However, the laws of war do actually care about intent. An incidental civilian casualty is very different from a deliberate one. The same way that losing control of your car and running over an old lady is treated far differently under the law than walking into a Church and shooting and old lady to death.

Now, in the far past--as in 70+ years ago, when there were instances of Jewish massacres of Arab Palestinians, that is a situation where you can say they were just as bad. But that isn't the situation today, at not point in recent memory has Israel gone around deliberately mass murdering civilians as a war goal.

We can bring up Israel's occupation of the West Bank, its blockade of Gaza--how it has let some of its violent settlers have too much of a leash, but all of those things are fundamentally quite different from deliberate mass murder of civilians. That doesn't mean they are laudable, that they are excusable--but equating them is bullshit. Don't equate mass murder of civilians to things that aren't mass murder of civilians, there is no good intentioned person who does that.

[viper37]

Okay, one more question just to make sure we are clear on the concepts.  There are many bad things in the world, let's rank several of them.

1)  Making inflammatory comments.
2)  Killing captured members of military.
3)  Killing of civilian men.
4)  Killing of civilian women.
5)  Killing of civilian elderly.
6)  Killing of civilian children.

We had SiegeBreaker here a while ago who said Palestinian wells should be poisoned.  He almost said he did it.

#2, is not applicable, the Palestinians have no military, but summary executions of wounded Palestinians does seem to happen and the military is not keen to prosecute such actions.

The rest of the points, we can certainly agree that at certain times the Israeli government does not take gloves when it retaliates against terrorist attacks like this last one.  

I don't think all Palestinians living in Gaza are complicit in the Hamas actions.  I don't think they even all support the Hamas actions or line of thought.  Contrary to Israelis, they aren't regularly polled for their opinion on the subject, and expressing dissent is not openly encouraged.  Granted, they chose the Hamas.  In 2006.  Had they been given a choice in 2011, they may have chosen another political party.  Or not.  It's impossible to know without an election.

What we do know is that on the other side, we have the leaders of the government who absolutely refuse the idea of peace, and one who goes so far as to believe that all Arab-Israelis should be expelled from the society.  And 35% of the current electorate vote for these people.

Again, how can you make peace when no one wants peace?  It's not a question or moral superiority here.  Hamas does not want peace and a significant proportion of the Israeli population does not want peace since they vote for parties that do not want a peaceful solution to the conflict, they want to the Palestinians out of the territory they see as theirs.

Wether they want to kill them or not is beside the point, they don't want them as neighbors, as friends, as co-workers.  They want them out and they want the space they occupy to build their own place with their own people. 

Some of them are willing to tolerate Arabs who were born within the territory of Israel, for now.  Some like Lieberman, clearly not.  And it seems to cause no problem for the Likud and their supporters when they form a coalition with such people, so clearly, that's not too bothersome for these 30% that Arab-Israelis would be seen as 2nd class citizens with dubious loyalty.

Haaretz editorial posits that the policies pursued by the current government are the leading cause in these attacks.  Clearly, I'm not pulling things out of thin air here.

Last I checked, Israel was a democracy.  People voted for the Likud.  Netanyahu was elected Prime Minister, many times over, and he went into a coalition with Lieberman.  Both politicians were accused of corruption and got away because of their connections.  And the people of Israel are still electing them.

I can not and will not support terrorism, but I can't condone stealing people homes in the middle of the night and expecting them to simply move elsewhere peacefully, especially when they're not wanted anywhere.  It's bound to happen that at some point something like this is going to happen again & again & again & again.

Israel has no choice but to defend itself, but it's own policies created this mess over the years.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Netanyahu reemphasizing today there is a "long war ahead", and a member of his cabinet saying the "First Gazan War will be the last." Not promising for anyone hoping for a quick cease fire outcome.