Israel-Hamas War 2023

[crazy canuck]

My impression is that Gaza's decision to go to full active war with Israel by attacking civilians in a very controversial way was a poor one by conventional standards. How do you protect actors against making poor decisions?

As far as undedicated impressions go, that is a right up there.

You think it wasn't a poor decision?

I think you have a poor understanding of the situation when you say that Gaza attacked Israel. Hamas attacked Israel.

Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization, not a nation and not Gaza.

And for those of you who like to think that you share the majority opinion, you might want to listen to the American president who also says that the enemy is Hamas, not the civilians in Gaza.

My impression is that Hamas have been the rulers of Gaza for some years. You're saying they haven't? And why would civilians be enemies? I don't follow.

Maybe we should stop talking about your impressions. I'd rather talk about reality.

Please tell me what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

[Valmy]

Maybe we should stop talking about your impressions. I'd rather talk about reality.

Please tell me what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

The reality is that Gaza freely and fairly elected Hamas their leaders in 2006. Granted it was a long time ago, and I would hope that Gazans would vote differently today, but we cannot pretend like there is zero evidence the Gazans support Hamas and their aims.

[Josquius]

So it seems Israel is using practical anti air lasers.
Star wars is here?

[Sheilbh]

Yeah although in referencing that, it's worth noting that the median age in Gaza is 18 - 65% of the population are under 25.

[Josquius]

Yeah although in referencing that, it's worth noting that the median age in Gaza is 18 - 65% of the population are under 25.

Close to half under 18 and 200,000 under 5 I heard. Which is amazing and really shows how much shitty living conditions link to a high birth rate.

[Threviel]

Maybe we should stop talking about your impressions. I'd rather talk about reality.

Please tell me what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

The reality is that Gaza freely and fairly elected Hamas their leaders in 2006. Granted it was a long time ago, and I would hope that Gazans would vote differently today, but we cannot pretend like there is zero evidence the Gazans support Hamas and their aims.

We had that discussion a bit back. Most measurements seem to point for a large support for Hamas in Gaza and amongst Palestinians in general. Not overwhelmingly large, but large. Most points to Hamas being elected again if there would be a vote on it and also them being elected in the West Bank. At least before the latest war, things might have changed.

That's not to equate Hamas with Palestinians in general, but it seems like the do need a fair bit of dehamasification after the war.

[Valmy]

Yeah although in referencing that, it's worth noting that the median age in Gaza is 18 - 65% of the population are under 25.

Right and I mentioned this before. A huge percentage of Gaza are just kids who simply have had the misfortune of being born in a shitty situation.

I was just saying we cannot pretend there is no evidence that Hamas doesn't represent the opinions of Gazans. They did 17 years ago and while I hope they do not currently that is just a fact.

[Jacob]

So apparently - motivated by the current conflict - a 71-year old American used a knife to attack a 32-year old woman and a 6-year old boy in Chicago, wounding the woman and killing the boy

Any of the involved people Palestinians or Israelis?

Yeah the victims are Palestinian-American. Not sure about the attacker, the news I saw didn't cover it.

[Sheilbh]

I believe the attacker was their landlord too.

[The Brain]

My impression is that Gaza's decision to go to full active war with Israel by attacking civilians in a very controversial way was a poor one by conventional standards. How do you protect actors against making poor decisions?

As far as undedicated impressions go, that is a right up there.

You think it wasn't a poor decision?

I think you have a poor understanding of the situation when you say that Gaza attacked Israel. Hamas attacked Israel.

Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization, not a nation and not Gaza.

And for those of you who like to think that you share the majority opinion, you might want to listen to the American president who also says that the enemy is Hamas, not the civilians in Gaza.

My impression is that Hamas have been the rulers of Gaza for some years. You're saying they haven't? And why would civilians be enemies? I don't follow.

Maybe we should stop talking about your impressions. I'd rather talk about reality.

Please tell me what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

I didn't ask you about my impressions. But I doubt we'll get much further.

[Oexmelin]

What would Palestinians not supporting Hamas look like?

[Valmy]

What would Palestinians not supporting Hamas look like?

I have never been to Palestine so I couldn't tell you, which is why I referred to the 2006 election.

[Valmy]

Yeah the victims are Palestinian-American. Not sure about the attacker, the news I saw didn't cover it.

Goddamnit. We have so many crazy psychos in this country.

[HVC]

Yeah the victims are Palestinian-American. Not sure about the attacker, the news I saw didn't cover it.

Goddamnit. We have so many crazy psychos in this country.

Luck of the odds. You have a lot of people.

[viper37]

Who would, really?

I would. I would in a second. And for the exact same reason the Irish accepted the partition even though it led to civil war, because it was the best they could be expected to get. I would basically agree to anything that got whatever crumbs the Palestinian people could get. Because the situation has been basically lost since the 1970s. And once I had a few bits of territory, that is a bases to make something better happen in the future.

And I would never agree to what was proposed in the Camp David accord as it wasn't a viable territory.  And there was no guarantee Israel wouldn't just invade Palestine in a few years under any pretext to start a new war and deport Palestinians again.  Between 1993 and 2000, Israel kept colonizing the West Bank and part of Gaza.  Then it withdrew from Gaza so it could further build in the West Bank.

And the Palestinian side kept launching rockets and launching terror attacks against Israel.  And Israel never for once envisioned to stop colonization of the territories because it sees this lands as belonging to them.

A peace treaty would not change that if it does not include a clear and defined border that is internationally recognized and supported by major powers.

I don't think Israel ever negotiated in good faith.  And that's why Sharon visited Temple Mount during the 2000 Camp David negotiations, to make sure the Israeli position was made clear, that no ground would ever be ceded.  And that's the reason he won his elections, because a majority of Israelis did not want peace at the price of land.  No matter what concession the Palestinians would have made, Israel would have found a pretext to renege on the deal and not transfer sovereignty on the promise territory, keep building colonies and/or invade the remaining parts of Palestine after some clash with the Palestinians.

You can't have peace unless both sides want it, and the majority position in Israel is that Transjordan is a vital part of the territory, Palestinian or no Palestinian.  Now, Gaza has become a clear and present danger and it must cleansed of Palestinians quickly to avoid a repeat of the events of October 7th. 

The Israeli govt is not even hiding its game anymore, they can't be clearer than that: There is no distinction between a Hamas supporter and a Palestinian civilian.  It's their own fault if they didn't overthrew the Hamas before, dixit the President.  No politician from any party even bothered to contradict him.


Anyway.  Back to the topic at hand, by your logic, Ukraine should have surrendered to Russia long ago.  Avoiding all these unnecessary deaths.  Give Russia what they wanted: Crimea and the Eastern part of the country.  Give them territory for peace, the best deal they could get at the time.