Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Tamas]

I remember hearing indirectly from a Palestinian that they believe themselves direct descendants of one of these peoples mentioned in the old testament ergo they have more right to the land than the Jews.

Which is quite common I guess, you have the same line of thought regarding Hungarian ancestry with various whacky theories on the Hungarian far-right as well.

[Josquius]

I remember hearing indirectly from a Palestinian that they believe themselves direct descendants of one of these peoples mentioned in the old testament ergo they have more right to the land than the Jews.

Which is quite common I guess, you have the same line of thought regarding Hungarian ancestry with various whacky theories on the Hungarian far-right as well.

Arguing who has more right to be somewhere based on genetic links millenia ago is a pretty crap way to do things.
But they would be right on the genetics. The Palestinians do have more of a direct descent from the people living in Palestine thousands of years ago than do most Israelis.
I've honestly never ran into anyone using this argument to push the Palestinian case, its usually pro-Israel folk trying to argue on this basis.

As I said before the UN has no definition. the Jews might have been indigenous to Palestine if they few and powerless and oppressed.  Which is how the world prefers them I suppose.  Still it interesting that "indigenous" has nothing really to do with being indigenous in the real sense of the world.  It's about power and posturing. The recent massacre has been so illuminating.

The UN certainly uses the word.
And sure. If history had gone different the natives would be majority Jewish. No Israel and the events leading up to it and you'd have the local Jews regarded as an indigenous minority.
I'm not sure what you mean about the massacre (meaning the 7th October?) being illuminating here.
It seems quite straight forward to me and nothing about power and posturing. It absolutely is about being indigenous, but also about being a minority.

[Razgovory]

That Palestinians are the decedents of Caanan and the Jews are actually the decedents of the Khazars is the standard line for the PLO.  The massacre was Oct 7th.  The word "Indigenous" means simply coming from the land you currently are in.  The idea of "Indigenousness" is about asserting power.

[The Minsky Moment]

Palestine was very underpopulated for most of the Ottoman period. During the Herodian era, the population of Jerusalem was around 50-100K and the total population of the region was over 1 million.  It was probably around 1/4 of that size for most of the Ottoman period.  Of course the crusaders massacred or scared off the entire Jewish and Muslim population of Jerusalem so that population during the Ottoman period must have consisted of subsequent immigrants or returning refugees.  That said, it's reasonable to assume that most of the Muslim and Christian "Palestinians" that became part of the mandate could trace back to the inhabitants of that land during the Roman Empire.  Tracing back to ancient Canaan is purely speculative. FWIW - and I don't think it matters much - genetic analysis has tended to indicate that modern day Jews do indeed trace descent to a founder population from the region as well.

[viper37]

I remember hearing indirectly from a Palestinian that they believe themselves direct descendants of one of these peoples mentioned in the old testament ergo they have more right to the land than the Jews.

Which is quite common I guess, you have the same line of thought regarding Hungarian ancestry with various whacky theories on the Hungarian far-right as well.

Israelis claim the same shit.
Plus the right of conquest.

After 75 years of war, both sides make all kind of claims.

[viper37]

Palestine was very underpopulated for most of the Ottoman period. During the Herodian era, the population of Jerusalem was around 50-100K and the total population of the region was over 1 million.  It was probably around 1/4 of that size for most of the Ottoman period.  Of course the crusaders massacred or scared off the entire Jewish and Muslim population of Jerusalem so that population during the Ottoman period must have consisted of subsequent immigrants or returning refugees.  That said, it's reasonable to assume that most of the Muslim and Christian "Palestinians" that became part of the mandate could trace back to the inhabitants of that land during the Roman Empire.  Tracing back to ancient Canaan is purely speculative. FWIW - and I don't think it matters much - genetic analysis has tended to indicate that modern day Jews do indeed trace descent to a founder population from the region as well.

The Jewish Virtual Library will give you the precise numbers for both groups since the Ottoman regime.

As for genetics, indeed, we discussed this befor3, very early on.  The differences are philosophical, not genetical.

[Tamas]

With his repeated dismissal of the idea of a Palestinian state (which I think is new from him) Netanhau is really showcasing that there will not be stop to the violence while he is in power. For quite a while now he has been fleeing toward political escalation to avoid prison and now because Oct 7 happened under his watch he must continue to escalate militarily. A lull in the violence would allow his rivals and critics to seriously raise his responsibility.

[crazy canuck]

If memory serves he has always opposed it, well at least since 1996.

[Valmy]

Yeah. He has always been a staunch opponent to US policy and our interests.

But we support him anyway.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Eh, that isn't so simple. The U.S. has strategic and political reasons it supports Israel, once you establish relationships like that with a country, it is a sticky matter to threaten to sever or curtail them because their democratic political system sometimes produces leaders you don't like.

For example the U.S./U.K. relationship isn't threatened on either side of the Atlantic when you have a Conservative PM and a Dem President, or vice versa. To some degree if you have relationships like that you have to respect the democratic process within those allied countries.

[The Minsky Moment]

For example the U.S./U.K. relationship isn't threatened on either side of the Atlantic when you have a Conservative PM and a Dem President, or vice versa. To some degree if you have relationships like that you have to respect the democratic process within those allied countries.

True, but only up to the point where national interest is at stake.  Ike had respect for Eden, but that didn't translate into underwriting the Suez adventure.  The problem that Bibi poses for the US is not ideological compatibility with the present administration or political differences between Israel in the US on various issues, but that his own peculiar personal interests and incentives are driving a war policy that threatens to drag the United States into as escalating quagmire of conflict in an area of the world that objectively is secondary to US strategic interests.

[Zanza]

For example the U.S./U.K. relationship isn't threatened on either side of the Atlantic when you have a Conservative PM and a Dem President, or vice versa. To some degree if you have relationships like that you have to respect the democratic process within those allied countries.

I guess if Corbyn had been elected PM while Trump was president that relationship would have been threatened.

[Sheilbh]

Corbyn has previously supported withdrawing from NATO (he thinks NATO should be disbanded as alliances increase risk in his view) and unilateral nuclear disarmament as well as opposing US bases in the UK/talking about having them shut down.

The party forced him to not quite go all in on that stuff. But I think whoever was US President would find the prospect a little concerning.

[The Minsky Moment]

Corbyn has previously supported withdrawing from NATO (he thinks NATO should be disbanded as alliances increase risk in his view) and unilateral nuclear disarmament as well as opposing US bases in the UK/talking about having them shut down.

The party forced him to not quite go all in on that stuff. But I think whoever was US President would find the prospect a little concerning.

Trump would love the idea of shutting down NATO and closing all the US bases overseas.  And he would have no problem with the UK shedding its nukes.

The left-right divide is real, but there is plenty of room for agreement on the axis of crazy and crazy.

[Admiral Yi]