Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

[crazy canuck]

Fear that has been unfounded so far.

My recollection is that they have not been in power since Harper.

and how have abortion rights been limited under Harper?
how has gay marriage been limited under Harper? (at the time, we weren't using half the alphabet)

The only social conservative thing they did was to limit foreign aid to countries that did not include abstinence in their sex-ed teachings to prevent STDs.  Nothing that left any permanent damage.

You missed my point, Harper kept the social conservatives in check.  Now they run the party

[viper37]

You missed my point, Harper kept the social conservatives in check.  Now they run the party

they still don't.

[Iormlund]

A life with disabilities is going to be different, not necessarily worse.

As someone who can make a direct comparison between having no disability and having one -- so slight people constantly around me won't ever take notice -- you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

My life was changed forever. What I can do and when I can do it was changed forever. And not for the better. I would give A LOT to get back what I lost.

Can't even imagine what it is for someone with serious disabilities to go through life.

[Barrister]

A life with disabilities is going to be different, not necessarily worse.

As someone who can make a direct comparison between having no disability and having one -- so slight people constantly around me won't ever take notice -- you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

My life was changed forever. What I can do and when I can do it was changed forever. And not for the better. I would give A LOT to get back what I lost.

Can't even imagine what it is for someone with serious disabilities to go through life.

Remember the context here - talking about abortion.

On old friend of mine is a quadriplegic as a result of hitting a moose back in the 1990s.  Prior to his accident his was very athletic and outdoorsy, in particular a big fan of canoeing / kayaking.  Now he's stuck in a chair and requires 24/7 care.

He's never said but I have no doubt he'd give almost anything to not have to live life paralyzed from the neck down.  But he is also a big activist for the rights of the disabled and that the lives of the disabled have as much dignity as anyone else.

I'm very sorry for your disability Iormlund, but I don't think we're really very far apart in our positions.

[Josquius]

I don't understand this reply.
What have the rights of the disabled got to do with anything here?
The issue was do disabled people face more struggles in life than able bodied people. Iormlund agrees they do.

[Barrister]

I don't understand this reply.
What have the rights of the disabled got to do with anything here?
The issue was do disabled people face more struggles in life than able bodied people. Iormlund agrees they do.

People with disabilities though - are people.  They have challenges and successes like anyone else.  Someone with Down Syndrome isn't like some birth defect where the child will die within minutes of being born - they can have long and healthy lives.  They have meaningful lives.

[Zanza]

I don't follow the abortion debate closely, but I was under the impression that the controversy is not about the rights, dignity and value of the life of born people, disability or no.

I had the impression that the controversy is about the rights of the mother versus the rights of the unborn child and at what point the one or the other weighs more heavily and should be given preference.

In jurisdictions that give the mother the right to abort non-disabled (I would use healthy but understood that this term seems unfitting as per Barristers earlier comment) children, e.g. Canada or currently the United States, the question whether or not a child would be disabled once born seems inconsequential to the abortion debate.

This would be different in a jurisdiction that limits abortions to embryos that are expected or certain to be disabled once born. But that's not the case as far as I understood the Canadian law.

[Berkut]

I think I get what Beebs is saying.

He agrees that a women has the right to choose abortion. He doesn't like it, but he agrees they have that right, and can at least understand it from the perspective of someone who just doesn't think they can handle a pregnancy or child right now.

His objection here is to someone who DOES think they can handle a pregnancy and child right now, they just decide they don't want some particular child - specifically a boy when they would prefer a girl, or a child with Downs when they would prefer one without.

[Barrister]

His objection here is to someone who DOES think they can handle a pregnancy and child right now, they just decide they don't want some particular child - specifically a boy when they would prefer a girl, or a child with Downs when they would prefer one without.

But not that I think we should pass a law banning it.

[Josquius]

I think I get what Beebs is saying.

He agrees that a women has the right to choose abortion. He doesn't like it, but he agrees they have that right, and can at least understand it from the perspective of someone who just doesn't think they can handle a pregnancy or child right now.

His objection here is to someone who DOES think they can handle a pregnancy and child right now, they just decide they don't want some particular child - specifically a boy when they would prefer a girl, or a child with Downs when they would prefer one without

Which is valid. A severely disabled child will most likely be more difficult to look after  than a healthy one.
If you rate your readiness for a kid as 7/10, the disability the fetus tests for requires a 8/10...well its just logical to reset, as hard as the decision might be at the time.

I don't understand this reply.
What have the rights of the disabled got to do with anything here?
The issue was do disabled people face more struggles in life than able bodied people. Iormlund agrees they do.

People with disabilities though - are people.  They have challenges and successes like anyone else.  Someone with Down Syndrome isn't like some birth defect where the child will die within minutes of being born - they can have long and healthy lives.  They have meaningful lives.

This doesn't explain anything.
Whether disabled people have rights and whether women have rights don't conflict.
Disabled rights have very little to do with abortion beyond cases where a woman has a disability that makes delivering a child harder.

[DGuller]

At what point does selective abortion become eugenics?  What if in the future you can do a prenatal test that with high confidence could predict your child's IQ, personality, predisposition to mental problems, predisposition to certain illnesses, and keep aborting until you hit bingo?

[Zanza]

At what point does selective abortion become eugenics?  What if in the future you can do a prenatal test that with high confidence could predict your child's IQ, personality, predisposition to mental problems, predisposition to certain illnesses, and keep aborting until you hit bingo?

That is an interesting ethical question, but I think the much more likely scenario to discuss this is selective IVF instead of repeated abortions.

[Josquius]

At what point does selective abortion become eugenics?  What if in the future you can do a prenatal test that with high confidence could predict your child's IQ, personality, predisposition to mental problems, predisposition to certain illnesses, and keep aborting until you hit bingo?

When it's the state telling you that you can't breed.

But yeah, what Zanza says. If you care that much and have access to all this testing then ivf makes more sense.

[Sheilbh]

Well also how do you usefully tell someone's motivation for getting an abortion. You might be able to on an aggregate level but how could you with an individual patient seeking treatment?

[Zanza]

His objection here is to someone who DOES think they can handle a pregnancy and child right now, they just decide they don't want some particular child - specifically a boy when they would prefer a girl, or a child with Downs when they would prefer one without.

But not that I think we should pass a law banning it.

Ok, got your perspective now and understand it.

There actually are countries where abortion based on the sex of the child is illegal, specifically India. They have a huge imbalance with much more males due to cultural preferences.