Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

[crazy canuck]

Fear that has been unfounded so far.

My recollection is that they have not been in power since Harper.

[Josquius]

I'd be strongly against a ban on abortion based on disabilities.
Someone I know recently had an abortion when it was found out the fetus had a heart abnormality which would have meant quite a horrid life of multiple surgeries and a big chance they wouldn't survive past 16. They wanted a kid but they didn't want to have one that endured such suffering in life so after a lot of anguish over the decision they pressed the reset switch.

A key reason for abortion is that having a kid just wouldn't fit into somebody's life. It's for the well being of the woman, her family, any potential kids, and society as a whole that they be allowed the choice of whether to have a kid or not.
Introduce a disability and you amplify quite how much of a impact it can have on their life. If someone isn't sure about raising a healthy kid then a kid with down syndrome would be a nightmare.
The key however is choice. Some people may be comfortable enough in life that they do think that's a challenge they can take on and produce thriving kids. But that's not everyone

[crazy canuck]

The difficulty I have with the concept is how does one determine the intent of the women having the abortion.

One hypothetical-a woman says the pregnancy is wanted, but she wants to have a abortion for whatever the genetic reason might be.  But really the woman did not want the pregnancy but is afraid of that information being leaned by others.

[Barrister]

I'd be strongly against a ban on abortion based on disabilities.
Someone I know recently had an abortion when it was found out the fetus had a heart abnormality which would have meant quite a horrid life of multiple surgeries and a big chance they wouldn't survive past 16. They wanted a kid but they didn't want to have one that endured such suffering in life so after a lot of anguish over the decision they pressed the reset switch.

A key reason for abortion is that having a kid just wouldn't fit into somebody's life. It's for the well being of the woman, her family, any potential kids, and society as a whole that they be allowed the choice of whether to have a kid or not.
Introduce a disability and you amplify quite how much of a impact it can have on their life. If someone isn't sure about raising a healthy kid then a kid with down syndrome would be a nightmare.
The key however is choice. Some people may be comfortable enough in life that they do think that's a challenge they can take on and produce thriving kids. But that's not everyone

Sigh... I had a lot more typed, now deleting.  I really don't want to debate abortion again - it's just pissing into the wind.

People with disabilities though - are people.  They have challenges and successes like anyone else.  Someone with Down Syndrome isn't like some birth defect where the child will die within minutes of being born - they can have long and healthy lives.  They have meaningful lives.

Just as one local example: Joey Moss worked for the NHL Edmonton Oilers for over 30 years.  He has a mural dedicated to him.  He was given a medal by the Queen.  In their recent playoff run the Oilers would play Joey's favourite song La Bamba after every win.  A new school named after him opens this fall.  And yes, he had Down Syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Moss

When you say how raising a child with a disability will affect someone's life you're quite right of course.  But you don't realize how much it can affect your life for the better.

[Berkut]

Nobody is saying a person with a disability is not a person though. I don't understand your point here.

The issue is not a debate about whether or not they are a person, just like the issue about abortion is not a debate about whether or not the fetus is a person once they are born. Of course they are.

The issue is about whether or not a individual has the right to choose the circumstances under which they end a pregnancy.

I am kind of confused at the idea that you support their right to choose ending a pregnancy when the fetus, so far as they are aware, is perfectly healthy, but not when they are aware that it is not perfectly healthy.

[Barrister]

I am kind of confused at the idea that you support their right to choose ending a pregnancy when the fetus, so far as they are aware, is perfectly healthy, but not when they are aware that it is not perfectly healthy.

Someone with a disability *IS* perfectly healthy - they're just different.

I even said before I would not support a ban on genetic discrimination abortions.  But in a world where the majority of fetuses diagnosed with Down Syndrome are aborted, I just wish people wouldn't.

[Berkut]

I am kind of confused at the idea that you support their right to choose ending a pregnancy when the fetus, so far as they are aware, is perfectly healthy, but not when they are aware that it is not perfectly healthy.

Someone with a disability *IS* perfectly healthy - they're just different.

I even said before I would not support a ban on genetic discrimination abortions.  But in a world where the majority of fetuses diagnosed with Down Syndrome are aborted, I just wish people wouldn't.

Srry, I thought this comment:

Tangentially related... I kind of wish we could ban gender discrimination abortion and non-fatal genetic discrimination.

was saying you would support such a ban.

But you are saying you just wish people simply would not do it.

I don't think a semantic argument about disabilities and perfectly healthy is useful.

I wish people would simply not get abortions at all, so I don't see much distinction here.

[Josquius]

Yeah, its quite a pretty horrid tactic I've seen anti-abortion people use in the past to wheel out people with disabilities and get them to say "So you're saying I shouldn't have been born and don't have the right to exist!". Not to say thats what Barrister did there, but got that bell ringing in my head.

Disabled people have all the rights of non-disabled people. A lot of them do go on to have great lives.
But its simply dishonest to pretend having a disabled kid doesn't present a greater chance of difficulties than having a non-disabled kid.

We aren't talking about any people who have already been born here.
We are talking about the women deciding whether to have a disabled kid or not in the first place. Its not an easy decision whether to abort for any reason. I hope I am never in a position where I have to be part of a decision to do this. But there should be zero shame in disabilities adding a few points to the abort side of the decision. Its not about whether you respect disabled people or anything like that.

[Barrister]

But its simply dishonest to pretend having a disabled kid doesn't present a greater chance of difficulties than having a non-disabled kid.

It's not dishonest at all.

A life with disabilities is going to be different, not necessarily worse.  Regularly-abled people run into all kinds of difficulties in their lives as well.  Trust me, working in the criminal justice field I run into them all the time.

[Barrister]

Srry, I thought this comment:

Tangentially related... I kind of wish we could ban gender discrimination abortion and non-fatal genetic discrimination.

was saying you would support such a ban.

I mean, I did say in the same paragraph:

But the government trying to make rules about why you can or can not have an abortion is just such an ethical minefield I think it's best left alone.

[Josquius]

But its simply dishonest to pretend having a disabled kid doesn't present a greater chance of difficulties than having a non-disabled kid.

It's not dishonest at all.

A life with disabilities is going to be different, not necessarily worse.  Regularly-abled people run into all kinds of difficulties in their lives as well.  Trust me, working in the criminal justice field I run into them all the time.

I said greater chance.
Life doesn't work in absolutes.
A kid who can't walk is going to face a lot of problems a kid with no troubles walking will never have to even consider.
This one factor of what makes them doesn't dictate everything about them, there's totally a chance the walking kid could be an absolute piece of trash whilst the wheelchair kid becomes the next Stephen Hawking.
But all else being equal when you're rolling the dice your odds of getting a higher number are more with a 10 sided than a 6 sided dice. And thats before we even consider intersectionality- to be a poor minority disabled person is going to be a massive multiplier of the odds of shit in life.

[The Brain]

If a disability means you're still perfectly healthy then that has weird effects all over the board.

[viper37]

Fear that has been unfounded so far.

My recollection is that they have not been in power since Harper.

and how have abortion rights been limited under Harper?
how has gay marriage been limited under Harper? (at the time, we weren't using half the alphabet)

The only social conservative thing they did was to limit foreign aid to countries that did not include abstinence in their sex-ed teachings to prevent STDs.  Nothing that left any permanent damage.

[Barrister]

If a disability means you're still perfectly healthy then that has weird effects all over the board.

Health is not the same as ability.  You can be healthy but blind, or have your sight and be sick.

[The Brain]

If a disability means you're still perfectly healthy then that has weird effects all over the board.

Health is not the same as ability.  You can be healthy but blind, or have your sight and be sick.

The conventional view is that making someone say blind means that you have done them permanent harm.