Have you ever asked for a pay rise?

[The Brain]

I think on a societal level it's a bad policy to require workers to have good negotiating skills to get their fair share, and negotiating is in general a wasteful zero-sum game.

We've talked about this before, and I still disagree completely. Without negotiation you are very unlikely to happen to hit on a good price.

Yes, I remember, and I guess I still disagree completely as well.  I think negotiation is a wasteful activity unless you're engaging in unique deals where there is no market price to anchor on, and I think it's a zero-sum game that lets the powerful entities scoop up most of the economic surplus from the deal.

OK I give up.

[DGuller]

OK I give up.

I was going to give up in my very next reply to you.    Now I know for a fact that you're a great mind.

[The Brain]

Same as GF. I'm surprised at the 52% that have never asked, wtf.

A lot of people are bad negotiators, and for things like that they're also up against trained negotiators who often have a lot more power in the relationship.  Being a good negotiator requires some tolerance for conflict. 

I think that's why 52% of Brits have never asked for one.

I would struggle with it internally - which is weird because a lot of my job is negotiations which can absolutely involve conflict and friction but I'd struggle with people I work with.

If your relationship with your boss is so toxic that you can't talk money without there being conflict and friction, then it's time to move on?

[The Brain]

OK I give up.

I was going to give up in my very next reply to you.    Now I know for a fact that you're a great mind.

Damn logic.

[Sheilbh]

If your relationship with your boss is so toxic that you can't talk money without there being conflict and friction, then it's time to move on?

We get on very well - I don't talk about money with anyone

[The Brain]

If your relationship with your boss is so toxic that you can't talk money without there being conflict and friction, then it's time to move on?

We get on very well - I don't talk about money with anyone

Of course, my bad. Having grown up in a castle of course you've never had to.

[Habbaku]

If your relationship with your boss is so toxic that you can't talk money without there being conflict and friction, then it's time to move on?

We get on very well - I don't talk about money with anyone

That's a mistake.

[Jacob]

I've asked for raises a good number of times and I've always gotten them. I've used a number of different approaches depending on the situation.

[DGuller]

If your relationship with your boss is so toxic that you can't talk money without there being conflict and friction, then it's time to move on?

Conflict doesn't necessarily mean profanity being uttered in anger or chairs being thrown.  It just means that you have conflicting goals.  Your manager would prefer to pay you what you're being paid, or otherwise they would've given you a raise without you asking.  When you ask for a raise, you're making it harder for them to reach their goals. 

Sometimes you can have conflicting goals without toxicity, but nevertheless people have a tendency to be wary of such situations, some much more than others.  Some people by nature of their personality want to minimize the number of situations that arise where their interests come at expense of other people's interests.

[Jacob]

I think on a societal level it's a bad policy to require workers to have good negotiating skills to get their fair share, and negotiating is in general a wasteful zero-sum game.

A few things:

Negotiation doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, even with salary.

I don't think it's accurate to frame negotiating salary as a policy. No one - and no body of people - is weighing the pros and cons of whether we should negotiate for salary or not.

There are options for workers who are uncomfortable negotiating for salary, and that's joining a union or other bargaining unit. That, of course, comes with a whole bunch of other implications. But at the core, the point of a union is to even out the bargaining positions of the involved parties a bit more than standard.

I don't see how negotiation is wasterful? It doesn't take very much time relative to the rest of the professional relationship, and negotiation generally produces better outcomes than not negotiating.

[The Brain]

If your relationship with your boss is so toxic that you can't talk money without there being conflict and friction, then it's time to move on?

Conflict doesn't necessarily mean profanity being uttered in anger or chairs being thrown.  It just means that you have conflicting goals.  Your manager would prefer to pay you what you're being paid, or otherwise they would've given you a raise without you asking.  When you ask for a raise, you're making it harder for them to reach their goals. 

Sometimes you can have conflicting goals without toxicity, but nevertheless people have a tendency to be wary of such situations, some much more than others.  Some people by nature of their personality want to minimize the number of situations that arise where their interests come at expense of other people's interests.

You're businesspersons. Doing business. If it gets personal then something in the relationship is a tad askew.

FWIW I don't think that workers should be forced to negotiate. If you don't want to do it then don't do it, by all means.

[Jacob]

Conflict doesn't necessarily mean profanity being uttered in anger or chairs being thrown.  It just means that you have conflicting goals.  Your manager would prefer to pay you what you're being paid, or otherwise they would've given you a raise without you asking.  When you ask for a raise, you're making it harder for them to reach their goals.

I don't think that's an accurate representation of the manager's goal. Assuming an industry where individuals are not immediately replacable and where people have some opportunity to find alternate jobs (even if it involves some effort), I think it's more accurate to say that the manager's objective is to pay you as little as possible to keep you happy and productive. And if you require more money than what you're currently making to remain happy and productive, it is in the manager's interest to find out whether what you require is within their available budget - and if it is, to pay you that.

If not increasing your pay keeps you happy and productive, then it's in the manager's interest to keep you at your current salary. If giving you an increase of X% is the difference between you leaving (or just doing a lousy job) or not, it may very well be the manager's preference to give you that increase.

The process of negotiation is figuring that out, and dealing with the consequences of that.

Sometimes you can have conflicting goals without toxicity, but nevertheless people have a tendency to be wary of such situations, some much more than others.  Some people by nature of their personality want to minimize the number of situations that arise where their interests come at expense of other people's interests.

Yeah, there's no toxicity required.

What I'm not clear on what sort of process you're proposing for dealing with legitimately conflicting interests?

[DGuller]

I don't see how negotiation is wasterful? It doesn't take very much time relative to the rest of the professional relationship, and negotiation generally produces better outcomes than not negotiating.

It's wasteful on a societal level, because whatever you gain somebody else loses in equal amount.  If you get a $10k raise from your employer, your employer's profits decrease by $10k (let's ignore all the complications like taxes and so on).  It's not an activity that collectively increases societal wealth, it just shifts it.  However, the time spent on all matters relating to negotiation could've been spent creating something that does increase the collective wealth.  It's an arms race to win a greater share of a pie whose quantity is fixed.

For a more extreme example, imagine that every time you go shopping, you have to negotiate the price of everything, like a carton of eggs, because you know that everything starts off being overpriced by approximately a factor of two or so, but you know that with effort the store has room to go down to meet you.  I think it would be a great waste in aggregate to have everyone haggling every single time, even if some savvy negotiators could really save on their food costs.

[DGuller]

What I'm not clear on what sort of process you're proposing for dealing with legitimately conflicting interests?

Published pay scales with narrow bands for commoditized jobs.  Good negotiator or bad negotiator, you know what you're going to get, and you know that you're not taken advantage of because you're lacking information.

[Syt]

As a rule of thumb, though, a company won't pay you as much as you're worth to them. If you cost them more than they earn through you (or how much they *think* they earn through you ) they will generally try to find cheaper solutions.