Has Biden Made the Right Choice in Afghanistan?

[Jacob]

It's nice to see Duque laying out his assumptions and chain of reasoning a bit instead of the smug sniping he usually does.

[Josquius]

I voted Remain I'll have you know

Voting against your multiculturalist interests? How self-sacrificing of you. 

I don't get it.

[Maladict]

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.

When I was in Dobruja the Islamic heritage was evident in many places, not just the various mosques that still remain.
Muslim place names and other toponyms, decorative elements in secular/domestic architecture, monuments and cemeteries.
And that's after a lot it was destroyed when the Ottomans left.

edit: almost forgot, there's a whole museum in Tulcea dedicated to its multicultural past.

[Duque de Bragança]

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.

When I was in Dobruja the Islamic heritage was evident in many places, not just the various mosques that still remain.
Muslim place names and other toponyms, decorative elements in secular/domestic architecture, monuments and cemeteries.
And that's after a lot it was destroyed when the Ottomans left.

edit: almost forgot, there's a whole museum in Tulcea dedicated to its multicultural past.

Reading failure I see.

Valmy mentioned specifically lots of muslim people who had been there for 500 years (boatloads) in Romania (and Hungary) but switched goalposts by invoking monuments or ruins, which exist.
He mixed up Balkans and Eastern Europe (broader) basically.

[The Larch]

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.

When I was in Dobruja the Islamic heritage was evident in many places, not just the various mosques that still remain.
Muslim place names and other toponyms, decorative elements in secular/domestic architecture, monuments and cemeteries.
And that's after a lot it was destroyed when the Ottomans left.

edit: almost forgot, there's a whole museum in Tulcea dedicated to its multicultural past.

IIRC in the Bulgarian part of Dobruja is one of the places where the country's Turkish minority is located, right?

[Duque de Bragança]

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.

When I was in Dobruja the Islamic heritage was evident in many places, not just the various mosques that still remain.
Muslim place names and other toponyms, decorative elements in secular/domestic architecture, monuments and cemeteries.
And that's after a lot it was destroyed when the Ottomans left.

edit: almost forgot, there's a whole museum in Tulcea dedicated to its multicultural past.

IIRC in the Bulgarian part of Dobruja is one of the places where the country's Turkish minority is located, right?

Not necessarily.



PS: map does not show Muslim Slavs such as Pomaks but they are far fewer.

[Maladict]

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.

When I was in Dobruja the Islamic heritage was evident in many places, not just the various mosques that still remain.
Muslim place names and other toponyms, decorative elements in secular/domestic architecture, monuments and cemeteries.
And that's after a lot it was destroyed when the Ottomans left.

edit: almost forgot, there's a whole museum in Tulcea dedicated to its multicultural past.

Reading failure I see.

Valmy mentioned specifically lots of muslim people who had been there for 500 years (boatloads) in Romania (and Hungary) but switched goalposts by invoking monuments or ruins, which exist.
He mixed up Balkans and Eastern Europe (broader) basically.

I don't think he meant that any of them are still living there aged 500 
But rather they have been a significant presence going back 500 years through several waves of immigration/settlement.
And the results of that past are still very much visible, even if not many remain at present.

Southern Dobruja's population was still >50% Muslim (wiki) by the time it became part of Romania proper. Your assertion that 'Romania never had many staying' is just not true.

[Tamas]

There's a crapton of Turkish words in the Hungarian language, a couple of nice mosques are still around, and it is said the bath culture originates from the Ottomans.

That doesn't change the fact that Ottoman occupation was a deeply traumatic and negative experience and a de facto holocaust for the nation, with large swaths of lands depopulated due to 150 years of skirmishing, wars, and slaving raids.

You do not want to convince Hungarians to let Muslims in by referring to the Ottoman period. In fact Orban used it for the exact opposite.

[Duque de Bragança]

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.

When I was in Dobruja the Islamic heritage was evident in many places, not just the various mosques that still remain.
Muslim place names and other toponyms, decorative elements in secular/domestic architecture, monuments and cemeteries.
And that's after a lot it was destroyed when the Ottomans left.

edit: almost forgot, there's a whole museum in Tulcea dedicated to its multicultural past.

Reading failure I see.

Valmy mentioned specifically lots of muslim people who had been there for 500 years (boatloads) in Romania (and Hungary) but switched goalposts by invoking monuments or ruins, which exist.
He mixed up Balkans and Eastern Europe (broader) basically.

I don't think he meant that any of them are still living there aged 500 
But rather they have been a significant presence going back 500 years through several waves of immigration/settlement.
And the results of that past are still very much visible, even if not many remain at present.

Southern Dobruja's population was still >50% Muslim (wiki) by the time it became part of Romania proper. Your assertion that 'Romania never had many staying' is just not true.

Are you sure you read wiki (the ultimate source obviously) correctly? The link I saw says 35 % for 1930 when it was Romanian, with Romanians having to bring settlers from other parts of Romania.

Southern Dobrogea was only part of (Greater) Romania for like 20-25 years and you are forgetting the Christian Gagauz which may be classified as Turks (ethnicity vs religion)? They are also found in Moldavia/Bessarabia and have a troubled *ahem* relationship with Romania.
You are gasping at straws with a very selective and limited example. Area was slightly Bulgarian back then and now 2/3 Bulgarian (Bulgarians slavicised non-muslim Turks? Maybe, but that's for another
discussion). Would spice up the Slav Macedonian debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobruja

Ethnicity         1930   
All                   378,344
Bulgarian         143,209 (37.9%)
Turkish            129,025 (34.1%)
Roma              7,615 (2%)
Tatar              6,546 (1.7%)
Romanian        77,728 (20.5%)

[Duque de Bragança]

There's a crapton of Turkish words in the Hungarian language, a couple of nice mosques are still around, and it is said the bath culture originates from the Ottomans.

That doesn't change the fact that Ottoman occupation was a deeply traumatic and negative experience and a de facto holocaust for the nation, with large swaths of lands depopulated due to 150 years of skirmishing, wars, and slaving raids.

You do not want to convince Hungarians to let Muslims in by referring to the Ottoman period. In fact Orban used it for the exact opposite.

Not arguing with the past Turkish influence. Your conclusion is what I was getting to.

[Maladict]

Are you sure you read wiki (the ultimate source obviously) correctly? The link I saw says 35 % for 1930 when it was Romanian, with Romanians having to bring settlers from other parts of Romania.

Southern Dobrogea was only part of (Greater) Romania for like 20-25 years and you are forgetting the Christian Gagauz which may be classified as Turks (ethnicity vs religion)? They are also found in Moldavia/Bessarabia and have a troubled *ahem* relationship with Romania.
You are gasping at straws with a very selective and limited example.

A drop from >50% in 1912 or whenever the war ended to 35% by 1930 doesn't seem that inconceivable?

I think my phrasing in the original post made it pretty clear it was anecdotal from personal experience. I have the time nor the inclination to be a keyboard warrior on these topics. Well, I do have the time, actually. And I couldn't resist a cheap shot when I read that sentence on wikipedia while reading up on the history of Islam in Romania for my own enjoyment. It brings back pleasant memories of my time Romania, I should go back there some time.
The source should be Zachary T. Irwin, "The Fate of Islam in the Balkans: A Comparison of Four State Policies" in you're interested. It does say Turkish, not Islamic, to be fair.

[Duque de Bragança]

I think my phrasing in the original post made it pretty clear it was anecdotal from personal experience. I have the time nor the inclination to be a keyboard warrior on these topics. Well, I do have the time, actually. And I couldn't resist a cheap shot when I read that sentence on wikipedia while reading up on the history of Islam in Romania for my own enjoyment.

[Iormlund]

I don't know - maybe try multiculturalism.

What is multiculturalism? Eating a kebab? Segregating swimming pools?

If it's the former I'm all for it. If the latter then no, thanks.

[Josquius]

I don't know - maybe try multiculturalism.

What is multiculturalism? Eating a kebab? Segregating swimming pools?

If it's the former I'm all for it. If the latter then no, thanks.

How would it mean segregating swimming pools?
Segregation and keeping the races in their own place is literally the opposite of multi-culturalism no?

[Eddie Teach]

He's talking about separating genders to please conservative Muslims, I presume.