Has Biden Made the Right Choice in Afghanistan?

[Valmy]

They are just as Muslim as Europeans are Christians I am aware 

And Kosovo is also a country

And you're welcome for us making that happen.

You hit the nail on the head, unwittingly.
Kosovo is part of Albania for Albanians, more evidence that you don't really know what you are talking about. 

As for me, if Austria had managed to hold onto Serbia, from the 18th century before you ask, many problems would have been avoided later.

I am aware the Austrians had Serbia in the 18th century. I don't know what insanity leads you to believe I know nothing about what I am talking about. OMG did you know what nationalist Albanians claim?!!! I am sure they claim half the Balkans

[Valmy]

Remember, this is not the US or UK, multiculturalism is rejected by most of Europe. Specially, in Eastern Europe, referred by Valmy earlier on.

You don't say?

I don't think anybody should be expecting Eastern Europeans to be taking immigrants of any kind, nor should we want them to.

[Duque de Bragança]

Remember, this is not the US or UK, multiculturalism is rejected by most of Europe. Specially, in Eastern Europe, referred by Valmy earlier on.

You don't say?

I don't think anybody should be expecting Eastern Europeans to be taking immigrants of any kind, nor should we want them to.

Well, since you had bizarre ideas about Eastern Europe, I went back to the basics, just to be sure. 
I would however add Eastern Europe does not want specifically muslim immigrants, because for instance Poland has plenty of –real– refugees and immigrants from Ukraine. Quite an achievement, given all the recent bad blood between the two countries.

[Duque de Bragança]

Also there were a lot of Circassian and other (mainly Muslim) refugees from the Caucasus around the Balkans, including Romania, for at least periods of that time. Europe's neighbourhood to the South East is largely Muslim. It'd be sort of extraordinary if that wasn't at least semi-permeable connection over the last 500 years.

And this kind of goes to the civilisational turn in Europe I was talking about. You can be a Europe of universal values which will indeed mean immigration and refugees, or you can be a Europe of "preserving our European way of life" and emphasising Europe's "Christian heritage". I think that is a fight right now, because obviously Europe contains countries and parties and people who have different views on that.

Circassians expelled from Russia, itself not really opposed to Islam, did not last long in the area, and left very few traces in the Balkans following the upheaval of WWI. Ottoman last-ditch attempt divide and conquer through manipulation of peoples was a failure.

As for the Europe of universal values, you will eventually have to choose between muslim/Al-Quran bashing immigrants and LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ eventually. Atheists or Jews are also at a peril, though this is an aspect of the French banlieue experience not very known outside of France it seems.

Besides, the unquestioned, unlimited mass-immigration of non-assimilable populations is only a very recent development, as an unintended effect of the family regrouping of the '70s. Supported primarily by people not living in the ethno-religious enclaves (banlieues) in question.

[Valmy]

Remember, this is not the US or UK, multiculturalism is rejected by most of Europe. Specially, in Eastern Europe, referred by Valmy earlier on.

You don't say?

I don't think anybody should be expecting Eastern Europeans to be taking immigrants of any kind, nor should we want them to.

Well, since you had bizarre ideas about Eastern Europe, I went back to the basics, just to be sure. 
I would however add Eastern Europe does not want specifically muslim immigrants, because for instance Poland has plenty of –real– refugees and immigrants from Ukraine. Quite an achievement, given all the recent bad blood between the two countries.

I have no bizarre ideas about Eastern Europe. You are just taking little details and blowing them out of proportion in a hilariously dishonest way. OMG YOU THINK KOSOVO IS A COUNTRY!!! I mean please.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know - maybe try multiculturalism. It seems to have better success at assimilating lots of communities than whatever you're talking about - I say having lived for five years in London's most famous "SHARIA NO GO ZONE"

Edit: Although I do find it striking that firing women for wearing a headscarf = not discriminatory. Poland/Hungary passing anti-LGBT laws = an affront to European values. I think that's pretty contradictory.

[Duque de Bragança]

Remember, this is not the US or UK, multiculturalism is rejected by most of Europe. Specially, in Eastern Europe, referred by Valmy earlier on.

You don't say?

I don't think anybody should be expecting Eastern Europeans to be taking immigrants of any kind, nor should we want them to.

Well, since you had bizarre ideas about Eastern Europe, I went back to the basics, just to be sure. 
I would however add Eastern Europe does not want specifically muslim immigrants, because for instance Poland has plenty of –real– refugees and immigrants from Ukraine. Quite an achievement, given all the recent bad blood between the two countries.

I have no bizarre ideas about Eastern Europe. You are just taking little details and blowing them out of proportion in a hilariously dishonest way. OMG YOU THINK KOSOVO IS A COUNTRY!!! I mean please.

Again ask Albanians, Kosovo is to be part of Albania. Interim county if you will.
"little details" (sic).You were totally wrong about Hungary and Romania, hardly a detail.

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't know - maybe try multiculturalism. It seems to have better success at assimilating lots of communities than whatever you're talking about - I say having lived for five years in London's most famous "SHARIA NO GO ZONE"

Edit: Although I do find it striking that firing women for wearing a headscarf = not discriminatory. Poland/Hungary passing anti-LGBT laws = an affront to European values. I think that's pretty contradictory.

If I wanted a nasty civil war, with a dismantling of the social state before, I would certainly try multiculturalism. So non merci.
Since the headscarf is discriminatory, blaming women for catching the eye of men (themselves all perverts by the islamist logic) it's a catch-22 I guess.
What incident are you referring to btw? I hope you are still not mixing up the face veil ban with the headscarf, a Languish classic.

[Sheilbh]

The recent CJEU ruling from a month or two ago.

[Duque de Bragança]

They are just as Muslim as Europeans are Christians I am aware 

And Kosovo is also a country

And you're welcome for us making that happen.

You hit the nail on the head, unwittingly.
Kosovo is part of Albania for Albanians, more evidence that you don't really know what you are talking about. 

As for me, if Austria had managed to hold onto Serbia, from the 18th century before you ask, many problems would have been avoided later.

I am aware the Austrians had Serbia in the 18th century. I don't know what insanity leads you to believe I know nothing about what I am talking about. OMG did you know what nationalist Albanians claim?!!! I am sure they claim half the Balkans

Not just the hardcore nationalist, which is why it's both funny and relevant.

If it was any insanity, it was yours though it's no excuse I guess. 

As for Kosovo, it's not just claimed by Albanians, it's Albanian now. Take or leave protochronism, hardly limited to Albanians (hello Eastern Europe and Balkans).

[Duque de Bragança]

The recent CJEU ruling from a month or two ago.

Not the Brexit you voted for? 
It was supposed to leave your multiculturalist theoretical theocracy alone, and, more importantly, continentals free from your nefarious influence. 
You're free now from he CJEU. Enjoy!

No big deal around here for obvious reasons, the only part with religious laws comparable to Germany would be Alsace-Moselle. Some overseas territories have specific religious laws but not necessarily close to the former model.

[Sheilbh]

I voted Remain I'll have you know

[Duque de Bragança]

I voted Remain I'll have you know

Voting against your multiculturalist interests? How self-sacrificing of you. 

[Valmy]

Not just the hardcore nationalist, which is why it's both funny and relevant.

If it was any insanity, it was yours though it's no excuse I guess. 

As for Kosovo, it's not just claimed by Albanians, it's Albanian now. Take or leave protochronism, hardly limited to Albanians (hello Eastern Europe and Balkans).

WTF are you talking about?

Yes I am entirely aware that the whole Kosovo deal was us being manipulated by Albanian nationalists. Can I even make a joke without you going off in weird WTF directions?

[Sheilbh]

Yes I am entirely aware that the whole Kosovo deal was us being manipulated by Albanian nationalists. Can I even make a joke without you going off in weird WTF directions?

I don't think that holds up at all.

There are political actors in all conflicts and none of them are ever going to be saints. But unlike looking back at Afghanistan - there were war crimes in Kosovo and NATO action stopped them. Not only that but the resulting revolution has been a good thing. I think it's the last positive intervention/attempt at nation building.

Maybe there are factors from it we can learn for how to do nation building - assuming that may happen again. Two things that occur to me are that there is a majority population in Kosovo (which is different than building peaceful institutions in a more divided society - Bosnia, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Iraq) and it has in the EU near it and neighbours going through the accession process - so there's a regional framework that it can slip into that can act as a stabilising presence, even if it is probably unlikely that any of its neighbours will actually join (that also applies to Northern Ireland and Bosnia).

Is it possible to nation build in a divided society without a regional framework (also a key difference with, say, Japan and Germany)?