Has Biden Made the Right Choice in Afghanistan?

[Valmy]

Unconfirmed reports that the Taliban has destroyed Senior's tomb in the valley.
And they elected hardliners as their leaders. So much for the moderation.

I am shocked, shocked to hear there are no women and almost no ethnic minorities in their government as well!

PS: 20 years ago to this day, Massoud was murdered by Molenbeek-Saint Jean/Sint Jans islamists.

indeed. I can't blame the eastern european countries for not wanting endless boatloads of muslims in their countries. They've seen what happens if you do.

Well I would hope so given that boatloads of Muslims have been living in Eastern Europe for 500 years.

Boatloads of muslims in Baltic(stan I guess), Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and the like? 

Baltics? Czechia? Slovakia? No.

Hungary, Romania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia, and Russia yes!

[Duque de Bragança]

Unconfirmed reports that the Taliban has destroyed Senior's tomb in the valley.
And they elected hardliners as their leaders. So much for the moderation.

I am shocked, shocked to hear there are no women and almost no ethnic minorities in their government as well!

PS: 20 years ago to this day, Massoud was murdered by Molenbeek-Saint Jean/Sint Jans islamists.

indeed. I can't blame the eastern european countries for not wanting endless boatloads of muslims in their countries. They've seen what happens if you do.

Well I would hope so given that boatloads of Muslims have been living in Eastern Europe for 500 years.

Boatloads of muslims in Baltic(stan I guess), Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and the like? 

Baltics? Czechia? Slovakia? No.

Hungary, Romania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia, and Russia yes!

Hungary and Romania that's still a no. I don't know where you got that idea, take or leave the wave of illegal immigrants going through Hungary in recent years.
The others, save Russia, are prime examples of balkantardism, hardly a success story.
As for Russia, it's not great too, though Putin accommodates muslims quite well, for his own and oligarchs' purposes.

[Valmy]

Hungary and Romania that's still a no. I don't know where you got that idea,

The Muslims themselves left evidence for their passing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakoval%C4%B1_Hasan_Pa%C5%9Fa_Mosque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmahan_Sultan_Mosque

Are we just going to pretend the Turks and Tatars played no role in Eastern European history?

Also: are there any parts of Eastern Europe we are prepared to call a big success story at this point?

[Duque de Bragança]

Hungary and Romania that's still a no. I don't know where you got that idea,

The Muslims themselves left evidence for their passing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakoval%C4%B1_Hasan_Pa%C5%9Fa_Mosque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmahan_Sultan_Mosque

Are we just going to pretend the Turks and Tatars played no role in Eastern European history?

Never said they played no role, that would be you.
Where are those boatloads of muslims in Hungary and Romania, since 500 years, again by the way?

[Valmy]

Never said they played no role, that would be you.

I was only saying Eastern Europe has indeed seen what boatloads of Muslims can do having had boatloads of them pass through many times, and many stay, for past 500 years. You said that wasn't true in Hungary and Romania despite that being obviously false.

[Valmy]

Where are those boatloads of muslims in Hungary and Romania, since 500 years, again by the way?

In the 19th and early 20th century things got a little hot for them, along with other religious and ethnic minorities in Eastern Europe.

But there are a few of them left in both countries.

[Duque de Bragança]

Never said they played no role, that would be you.

I was only saying Eastern Europe has indeed seen what boatloads of Muslims can do having had boatloads of them pass through many times, and many stay, for past 500 years. You said that wasn't true in Hungary and Romania despite that being obviously false.

Being invaded repeatedly is no guarantee of permanent settlement.

Many muslims staying in Romania and Hungary is obviously false. Do you have any idea of the religious make-up of the populations in these countries nowadays?
Romania never had many staying, thanks to Vlad the Impaler, Stephen the Great and others, plus a vassal statuts keeping muslims settlers out in exchange for submission.
As for Hungary, no real muslim settlement as well but a huge depopulation due to being a battlefield location between Habsburgs and Ottomans.

At best, you're mixing up very different situations out of ignorance.

[Valmy]

At best, you're mixing up very different situations out of ignorance.

Not necessarily out of ignorance. I certainly get that having Albanians and Bosniaks around is different then having millions of Arabs or Central Asians moving in. Albanians are Muslims but they are also East Europeans that everybody is used to. But when the Turks and Tartars first rode in that was not the case.

But still surely having lots of Muslims making up majorities of multiple countries and having served as overlords of others for 500 years is indeed seeing what happens when there are lots of Muslims around.

[Sheilbh]

Also there were a lot of Circassian and other (mainly Muslim) refugees from the Caucasus around the Balkans, including Romania, for at least periods of that time. Europe's neighbourhood to the South East is largely Muslim. It'd be sort of extraordinary if that wasn't at least semi-permeable connection over the last 500 years.

And this kind of goes to the civilisational turn in Europe I was talking about. You can be a Europe of universal values which will indeed mean immigration and refugees, or you can be a Europe of "preserving our European way of life" and emphasising Europe's "Christian heritage". I think that is a fight right now, because obviously Europe contains countries and parties and people who have different views on that.

[Duque de Bragança]

At best, you're mixing up very different situations out of ignorance.

Not necessarily out of ignorance. I certainly get that having Albanians and Bosniaks around is different then having millions of Arabs or Central Asians moving in. Albanians are Muslims but they are also East Europeans that everybody is used to. But when the Turks and Tartars first rode in that was not the case.

But still surely having lots of Muslims making up majorities of multiple countries and having served as overlords of others for 500 years is indeed seeing what happens when there are lots of Muslims around.

Majority of multiple countries is still wrong.

The only case is Albania, notorious for its "fake" muslims, among muslims cf. "Religion of Albanians is Albania". It's the country of Skanderberg, a figure hardly known as islamic. I guess you don't known many Albanians. 

Even with Muslim Bosnians it's a plurality and not a majority.

Basically, you mixed up Balkans and Eastern Europe and oversimplified the Balkan situation (™balkantard™ ©Tamas).

[Valmy]

They are just as Muslim as Europeans are Christians I am aware 

And Kosovo is also a country

And you're welcome for us making that happen.

[Duque de Bragança]

They are just as Muslim as Europeans are Christians I am aware 

And Kosovo is also a country

And you're welcome for us making that happen.

You hit the nail on the head, unwittingly.
Kosovo is part of Albania for Albanians, more evidence that you don't really know what you are talking about. 

As for me, if Austria had managed to hold onto Serbia, from the 18th century before you ask, many problems would have been avoided later.

[Sheilbh]

They are just as Muslim as Europeans are Christians I am aware 

Quite. I mean if we have to accept Protestants - and, I'm told, we do - then I don't think there's much to be gained from us no true Scotsmans people's beliefs or religions.

[Duque de Bragança]

They are just as Muslim as Europeans are Christians I am aware 

Quite. I mean if we have to accept Protestants - and, I'm told, we do - then I don't think there's much to be gained from us no true Scotsmans people's beliefs or religions.

As for accepting Protestants, canada dry Protestants such as Anglicans (hello High Rite) or even 50 % catholic à la Lutherans is no big deal. Nice straw man though.

Sure, Al-Quran bashers sure have a lot in common with Bible Bashers yet that does not get automatically European status. Remember, this is not the US or UK, multiculturalism is rejected by most of Europe. Specially, in Eastern Europe, referred by Valmy earlier on.

[Sheilbh]

So that's a different point.

What I was saying was that Albanians are Muslims, that's all.