Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[viper37]

Plastic Bertrand is Belgian. 

There's no such thing as Belgians, just ask Jules Destrée, or Talleyrand if you don't believe Destrée

The Walloons identify as Belgians.  I have yet to meet a Walloon who calls himself Walloon first.  Flemings are another matter.  To "Where are you from?", "Flanders" is the answer 9 times out of 10.

Walloons only identify as "Belgian" because of money.

It's irrelevant what their reason is.  You may call yourself Flemish for a variety of reasons, it doesn't change the fact that you feel Flemish.  There might be the odd Flemish born abroad ( ) who identifies as Belgian, but it's also irrelevant as to why he does it.

[Josquius]

I've recently read about the French regions. It's fascinating France was able to get this logical reform through (the UK needs it too. And failed largely.).

Though one thing I'm really curious about is the generally rather awful naming - nouvelle aquitaine for instance... How was this OK where aquitaine wasn't?

[Admiral Yi]

Plastic Bertrand is Belgian. 

The one decent French pop song in the history of music is not French!

[Sheilbh]

I see someone decided to do a far left v far right debate tonight

Melenchon v Zemmour - which is a journalistic/broadcasting decision I suppose.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I see someone decided to do a far left v far right debate tonight

Melenchon v Zemmour - which is a journalistic/broadcasting decision I suppose.

not sure if Zemmour is far right though.

[Oexmelin]

he is

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I don't really see how we can say a guy who is outflanking Le Pen isn't on the far-right...

[Duque de Bragança]

I see someone decided to do a far left v far right debate tonight

Melenchon v Zemmour - which is a journalistic/broadcasting decision I suppose.

It's from the channel which propped up your boy Macron, your former golden calf.  Burning golden calf now I presume? 

I thought Identity Politics minded people would love it. Both born in North Africa, one Freemason and of Berberian Jewish ascendancy (no Sephardi sorry), so none of these dominant traditional Catholic Christian white males. 

Only caught the tail end. Not brilliant, but not as agitated as I thought it would be.

Both agreed a Revolution was necessary, though they disagreed on the nature. Mélenchon would get lots of opt-outs from the EU, Zemmour was skeptical about Mélenchon's being able to do so.
However, Zemmour agreed to get rid of "pesky" EU limitations and "government of judges", namely on immigration and family regrouping. Mélenchon, being mostly based on muslim votes and far-left bobos did not, in this instance.

Mélenchon unsuccessfully tried to insinuate Zemmour's would be petainist by calling it "Révolution nationale". It failed, so he had to explain it and ruin the innuendo. I am not sure Mélenchon islamic banlieue audience would get it anyways.
Mélenchon also tries to pose as green now, and wants to decommission nuclear power plants early (prematurely if you ask me). Zemmour sees them as compulsory, not just for ecological reason, but strategic independence reasons.
As always with Mélenchon, French history only starts from 1789, with the people's revolution of 1789. 

Best retort I saw came from Zemmour when he disparaged the "full constituting powers" (la Constituante) necessary for Mélenchon to implement his VIth Republic since it would bring back the dreadful IVth Republic. Zemmour being the Gaullo-bonapartist he is, obviously despises it and stated it was a typical left-wing objective. 

PS: if people mean by far right (neo-) nazis this is obviously and hilariously wrong about Zemmour. Right-wing souverainist and anti-immigration (not all in fact) are more accurate. Not to mention he defended in his book the former PCF leader, Georges Marchais, describing him as the last gaullist.

[Duque de Bragança]

Yeah I don't really see how we can say a guy who is outflanking Le Pen isn't on the far-right...

Marine also had an economics program close to Mélenchon last time and Zemmour is not at all  a classical liberal or neo-liberal.
There is a huge overlap between Marine and Zemmour. Some Fillon voters could also feel at home specially they put away some their class interests, to quote the Marxian (not Marxist obviously) Zemmour.  Not those who turned coats and went over to Macron obviously.

[Duque de Bragança]

Plastic Bertrand is Belgian. 

The one decent French pop song in the history of music is not French!

Weak troll, leave trolling to pros such as Le Pen (père).

[Sheilbh]

It's from the channel which propped up your boy Macron, your former golden calf.  Burning golden calf now I presume? 

Yeah I loved Macron as a candidate. I still think a lot of his analysis - especially on global/foreign policy is spot on - but I don't think he's been effective. Of course it's difficult to be as ambitious as he is and I think Europe needs to be with other forces in Europe.

But he has been basically a think-tanker in chief and I think he is the model of the techno-populist with all of the faults and issues of technocracy and populism with none of the benefits of either. Which is perhaps a function of the office.

I thought Identity Politics minded people would love it. Both born in North Africa, one Freemason and of Berberian Jewish ascendancy (no Sephardi sorry), so none of these dominant traditional Catholic Christian white males. 

I'm just going to put this down on the very long list of you clearly not really understanding identity politics

As always with Mélenchon, French history only starts from 1789, with the people's revolution of 1789. 

The rest is prologue.

PS: if people mean by far right (neo-) nazis this is obviously and hilariously wrong about Zemmour. Right-wing souverainist and anti-immigration (not all in fact) are more accurate. Not to mention he defended in his book the former PCF leader, Georges Marchais, describing him as the last gaullist.

I don't just mean neo-nazi or nazi because I don't think political movements are sort of preserved in amber but change and evolve and move. They're heavily contingent bodies of thought and practice - I can't imagine anything more changeable.

Marine also had an economics program close to Mélenchon last time and Zemmour is not at all  a classical liberal or neo-liberal.
There is a huge overlap between Marine and Zemmour. Some Fillon voters could also feel at home specially they put away some their class interests, to quote the Marxian (not Marxist obviously) Zemmour.  Not those who turned coats and went over to Macron obviously.

Sure but the last time the right-left economics axis was the primary one in politics was probably about 50 years ago (it might return - I think it will). Especially in a Eurozone context where the current rules and treaties very tightly circumscribe the range of acceptable politics, which I think is, in part, why the fringes thrive.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

so not extreme-right. gotcha.

[Duque de Bragança]

It's from the channel which propped up your boy Macron, your former golden calf.  Burning golden calf now I presume? 

Yeah I loved Macron as a candidate. I still think a lot of his analysis - especially on global/foreign policy is spot on - but I don't think he's been effective. Of course it's difficult to be as ambitious as he is and I think Europe needs to be with other forces in Europe.

But he has been basically a think-tanker in chief and I think he is the model of the techno-populist with all of the faults and issues of technocracy and populism with none of the benefits of either. Which is perhaps a function of the office.

Now, that's mean for populists. I believe demagogue is a better word for Macron since Macron never claimed to stand for the people and spoke and did a lot against the "populo" (the little people in French).

I thought Identity Politics minded people would love it. Both born in North Africa, one Freemason and of Berberian Jewish ascendancy (no Sephardi sorry), so none of these dominant traditional Catholic Christian white males. 

I'm just going to put this down on the very long list of you clearly not really understanding identity politics

Identity politics is a big, nefarious, incoherent mess, ranging from nazism to islamism, with varying degrees of leftist useful idiots.
Nowadays, the part where the white males, be them bourgeois/"dominant" or not are the new Untermenschen, seems pretty much accepted, except for the local far-right, not imported far-right à
la Indigènes de la République or Grey Wolves (finally banned by Macron's clique for the latter).
Do some research on the PIR(e), starting by their leader Houria Bouteldja.

As always with Mélenchon, French history only starts from 1789, with the people's revolution of 1789. 

The rest is prologue.

Meme use à la Syt's sisters? Nice argument.   
Mélenchon is a Robespierre wannabe, so it's 1793 for him, not 1789. 

PS: if people mean by far right (neo-) nazis this is obviously and hilariously wrong about Zemmour. Right-wing souverainist and anti-immigration (not all in fact) are more accurate. Not to mention he defended in his book the former PCF leader, Georges Marchais, describing him as the last gaullist.

I don't just mean neo-nazi or nazi because I don't think political movements are sort of preserved in amber but change and evolve and move. They're heavily contingent bodies of thought and practice - I can't imagine anything more changeable.

So it's just some opportunist dog whistling politics though. But then, even De Gaulle was called far right (by leftists) or even fascist (May 1968) in his days.

Marine also had an economics program close to Mélenchon last time and Zemmour is not at all a classical liberal or neo-liberal.
There is a huge overlap between Marine and Zemmour. Some Fillon voters could also feel at home specially they put away some their class interests, to quote the Marxian (not Marxist obviously) Zemmour.  Not those who turned coats and went over to Macron obviously.

Sure but the last time the right-left economics axis was the primary one in politics was probably about 50 years ago (it might return - I think it will). Especially in a Eurozone context where the current rules and treaties very tightly circumscribe the range of acceptable politics, which I think is, in part, why the fringes thrive.

It may seem unimportant because Macron keeps having contradictory statements but his position in the economics axis is pretty well known.
I'm glad to see you agree with Mélenchon and Zemmour about rules and treaties having (too?) much power.

[Duque de Bragança]

I mentioned earlier that Mélenchon's misinterpretation of French history is probably too demanding for his islamic banlieue clientèle but to be fair, Zemmour warning of France's "libanisation" (from Lebanon)  will not be understood by the average voter.
Debate a bit professorial from the little I saw.

Balkanisation would be better understood IMO.

[Duque de Bragança]

I missed Mélenchon's cheapest attack on Zemmour.

Mélenchon said Zemmouristan already existed, it's called Saudi Arabia.



Coming from someone that relies so heavily on muslim and islamist votes that's hilariously cheap.
Even more of a demagog than Jupin. 

Zemmour, not being a feminist, is obviously in the same boat as Saudi Arabia.