Polish court orders historians to apologise over Holocaust book

[Malthus]

Interesting. I suppose I associate the Western European recognition/acknowledgement as starting with sort of the 1968 generation and then Chirac's recognition of the role of the French state in the Vel' d'Hiv round-up (which was, of course, echoed when the same location was used to hold Algerian protesters in 1962 and Maurice Papon who had participated in the round-up of Jews was, by that point, the Prefect of Police in Paris).

Edit: Out of interest have there been official acknowledgements by the Dutch government?

To be clear, none of it is contested, it's just that a lot of (mostly older) people prefer not to confront these ghosts of the past.

The city of Amsterdam sent returning Jewish survivors tax bills for 1940-1945 (plus interest, of course). Formal apologies were finally made in 2015, and some other cities are following suit now.
The PM apologized, unexpectedly, on behalf of the Dutch government on Holocaust remembrance day in 2020. It had been talked about for decades, but saying sorry seems to be very hard for politicians. The king then more or less apologized for the lack of support for the Jews from the royal family, on Liberation Day last May.

I don't really think it's the young people that are driving this, they don't seem to care about the war in any way. It's people our age, not (in)directly damaged by wartime trauma like the boomers were, but old enough to have known the people that lived through it.

It is hard for us relative old-timers to understand just how remote the events of WW2 are to younger people.

I was born in 1967 - 22 years after the end of WW2. That seemed a long time, but it isn't really - we are coming up on 22 years after the Millennium, an event that now seems very recent to me!

When I was growing up, I of course knew plenty of people who were involved in WW2, and so questions of accountability were pressing.

Now, it is increasingly ancient history. Already only the very elderly have any personal rememberance of it, and they are likely to all be gone soon. Now, it is 76 years ago - the same length of time from the American Civil War to partway through WW2. To my kid, it is something in the deep past.

[Sheilbh]

Yes - and yet the importance of the Holocaust and other legacies of WW2 are still very present in modern day politics and "alternative" histories (from outright lies to solipsistic takes) are still circulating.

This isn't even just related to the European war. I read an article today which included a nugget that Chinese foreign policy thinkers view the growing British-Japanese alliance as a re-igniting of the old 1920s alliance; similarly I understand from Adam Tooze's writing that party documents will very often refer to the Chinese-Japanese war or even battles like Stalingrad because the war is a core foundational part of the People's Republic and the legitimacy of the Communist Party.

In many ways I think that the war is settled and non-contentious, with relatively little salience in contemporary politics (perhaps, except, in Britain? "very well then, alone") is an exceptional aspect of Western Europe and North America. From what I understand it still seems far more open and relevant in Asia and Eastern Europe.

In relation to the Holocaust in particular I am very worried about our discourse once the last survivors die. And on both the Holocaust generally, and Poland, in specific, I think Lanzmann's Shoah is an extraordinary contribution.

[Maladict]

It is hard for us relative old-timers to understand just how remote the events of WW2 are to younger people.

Yeah, it's like WW1 to us.

[Valmy]

I am sometimes surprised by how remote and in the past the Vietnam War is to the younger generation now. When I was born it had only been over for two years. I find that fascinating considering how traumatic and very important that war was when I was a kid.

[Tamas]

I am sometimes surprised by how remote and in the past the Vietnam War is to the younger generation now. When I was born it had only been over for two years. I find that fascinating considering how traumatic and very important that war was when I was a kid.

I also wonder if the whole 60s thing with the culture and all, which was still perceived as a Big Deal by me thanks to it being handled as such by the generation just before me, is of any consequence or interest to young people.

Not to mention 80s and 90s. Guns N' Roses is as old now as the bands of the late 50s were when they were new.

[Sheilbh]

I also wonder if the whole 60s thing with the culture and all, which was still perceived as a Big Deal by me thanks to it being handled as such by the generation just before me, is of any consequence or interest to young people.

Not to mention 80s and 90s. Guns N' Roses is as old now as the bands of the late 50s were when they were new.

I think we're living through it. The Crown, Pride, It's a Sin, 120 BPM, the Deutschland series, Stranger Things, Pose etc. We're seeing a cultural sort of setting of what the 80s were and the 90s will follow. Some of it - especially Stranger Things and Deutschland and the music - are exploiting the nostalgia of people like me from the tail end of the 90s because we're now peak consumers.

But it's also as I say fixing a narrative of what the 80s were which will be very difficult to shift and stands in contrast to how the 80s were experienced by many. Just like the cultural "setting" of the 60s and 70s. But, yeah, Nirvana is to us what skiffle and other pre-Beatles trends were to them

[Syt]

Someone pointed out the other day that the show The Wonder Years debuted in 1988 and was set in 1968.

If you were to make a show with a similar premise now it would be set in 2001.

Maybe it's me but it seems there was a bigger cultural change 1968 => 1988 than there was 2001 => 2021?

[celedhring]

Someone pointed out the other day that the show The Wonder Years debuted in 1988 and was set in 1968.

If you were to make a show with a similar premise now it would be set in 2001.

Maybe it's me but it seems there was a bigger cultural change 1968 => 1988 than there was 2001 => 2021?

I think it's more of a psychological consequence of not being alive in 1968. Events within our lifetime will always feel closer to each other than events outside it, even if chronologically that's not the case.

We have changed a lot since 2001, just think i.e. of social media and the profound cultural effects it has had.

[Valmy]

I mean 2001 was just a few years before Languish started. Maybe we should do a nostalgia piece about 2003 when we all started posting here.

But it doesn't feel like that much has changed since then does it?

But maybe people in 1988 felt the same way about 1968. I don't know.

[Admiral Yi]

People didn't walk around staring at phones in 2001, did they?

[Sheilbh]

Maybe it's me but it seems there was a bigger cultural change 1968 => 1988 than there was 2001 => 2021?

Yes maybe. As an unreconstructed nostalgic for my youth I have watched a few programs from sort of peak Cool Britannia era (we don't have a cringe emoji, alas) like Queer as Folk and Smack the Pony. On a purely aesthetic level it looks so very old and I feel like an ancient. There is a very specific late 90s - early 2000s aesthetic that is super-distinctive (for some reason the film that always springs to mind as an example of this is Brosnan's early Bond films).

However from about 2005-7 and the first iPhone release and Facebook I swear there's been an aesthetic flattening. Everything is similar all around the world - football styles, memes, fashion, films etc - and also have gone through less outlandish leaps of style as you saw in the 70s, 80s, 90s. I feel like what I wear now I pretty much could've worn about 15 years ago whereas 2005 - 1990 are world's apart. That's why we must, reluctantly, turn off the internet

[Valmy]

We have changed a lot since 2001, just think i.e. of social media and the profound cultural effects it has had.

I guess. It was not like that wasn't around in 2001 but it was a bit different.

Of course we are definitely using an artifact from those days.

[Valmy]

People didn't walk around staring at phones in 2001, did they?

Using the internet on your phone in 2001 would bankrupt you quickly. They had draconian data charges plus the browsers were really primitive.

[FunkMonk]

Here I am, crying into my old brick cell phone from 1990.

[Valmy]

However from about 2005-7 and the first iPhone release and Facebook I swear there's been an aesthetic flattening. Everything is similar all around the world - football styles, memes, fashion, films etc - and also have gone through less outlandish leaps of style as you saw in the 70s, 80s, 90s. I feel like what I wear now I pretty much could've worn about 15 years ago whereas 2005 - 1990 are world's apart. That's why we must, reluctantly, turn off the internet

Yeah my clothes have not changed at all since 2005, while I wouldn't be caught dead now in much of what I wore in the 1990s. I have wondered if that was just getting older, I do recall middle aged men in the 1980s and early 1990s wearing 1960s and 1970s clothes just because they weren't trendy at all, but it is not like the kids are wearing stuff that is all that distinctive either.