Polish court orders historians to apologise over Holocaust book

[The Minsky Moment]

Because the answers are 1. yes and 2. no, then I don't see the problem with the verdict, just one of the countless libel trials basically.

Is it typical in Europe for dead people to sue for libel?

[crazy canuck]

Because the answers are 1. yes and 2. no, then I don't see the problem with the verdict, just one of the countless libel trials basically.

Is it typical in Europe for dead people to sue for libel?

Already made that point, but it flew over people's head.  So reverted to making the point that even if he was alive, this would not be actionable.

[Razgovory]

Because the answers are 1. yes and 2. no, then I don't see the problem with the verdict, just one of the countless libel trials basically.

Is it typical in Europe for dead people to sue for libel?

Dead people in Romania are known to British lawyers.

[Berkut]

From the New York Times article on this:

Judge Jonczyk said she had ruled against awarding damages because court decisions "should not have a cooling effect on scientific research." She also rejected a demand that the apology describe the wartime mayor of Malinowo village, Edward Malinowski, as a "Jew-saving hero." The book had portrayed him as a thief and Nazi collaborator.

.

Professor Engelking said the issues "we are supposed to apologize for have no basis in fact." She said her account of the wartime mayor's actions, which included both helping and betraying Jews, was based on the postwar testimony of a Jewish woman whom he had aided and also robbed.

Considering this mayor got condemned in the book as a collaborator based on one survivor's testimony, who actually was aided by the mayor but then robbed by him, I think stopping the case at an apology is fairly level-headed.

I mean what was the judge supposed to do? Declare that yes in fact, based on this one witness who was saved by the mayor, the mayor was a Nazi collaborator and a killer?

Judges do not have to decide whether or not The mayor was or was not a good guy.

They could simply say that the case for libel had not been proven.

[The Brain]

Did he rob her and give the money to the Nazis, or did he keep it himself?

[Sheilbh]

Is it typical in Europe for dead people to sue for libel?

Not sure about libel, but it isn't uncommon for privacy law or rights to still apply to the deceased - normally exercised by partner or heir etc. It's not universal, but does exist. I wouldn't be too surprised if there was something similar for "reputation" rights.

[Tamas]

Is it conceivable that Polish law is different in this regard to Canadian and US law?

[Admiral Yi]

Is it conceivable that Polish law is different in this regard to Canadian and US law?

That's sort of the whole point of this thread.

[Tamas]

Is it conceivable that Polish law is different in this regard to Canadian and US law?

That's sort of the whole point of this thread.

The point of the thread if this was a politically motivated punitive verdict to discourage research into Polish collaborators. That was clearly the intention of the organisation supporting the niece making the claim, but I think the judge quite clearly refused to do this for them.

[Admiral Yi]

The point of the thread if this was a politically motivated punitive verdict to discourage research into Polish collaborators. That was clearly the intention of the organisation supporting the niece making the claim, but I think the judge quite clearly refused to do this for them.

I think it's fairer to say the point of the thread is the underlying Polish law is total crap and the judge's verdict is not as crappy as the law but still crap.

[Tamas]

The point of the thread if this was a politically motivated punitive verdict to discourage research into Polish collaborators. That was clearly the intention of the organisation supporting the niece making the claim, but I think the judge quite clearly refused to do this for them.

I think it's fairer to say the point of the thread is the underlying Polish law is total crap and the judge's verdict is not as crappy as the law but still crap.

It's a bit of a sparse information on Polish libel laws to draw sweeping conclusions isn't it?

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I'm not convinced this should ever have been near a court and I'm very uncomfortable with a pressure group funding this sort of case - because you imagine they'll be doing it for any publisher.

It reminds me of a less extreme version of the David Irving libel trial. That got the right result but I'm not sure was quite right in terms of whether there should've been a libel case at all.

[Admiral Yi]

It's a bit of a sparse information on Polish libel laws to draw sweeping conclusions isn't it?

No.  Either the Polish libel law is reasonable, in which case the verdict is crap, or the Polish libel law is crap, and the judge's verdict fits a crappy law.

[Tamas]

Yeah I'm not convinced this should ever have been near a court and I'm very uncomfortable with a pressure group funding this sort of case - because you imagine they'll be doing it for any publisher.

It reminds me of a less extreme version of the David Irving libel trial. That got the right result but I'm not sure was quite right in terms of whether there should've been a libel case at all.

Fair point.

In general I don't like this, I just don't like dismissing the overall topic as silly East Europeans being butthurt. As discussed at the start of the thread there are a lot of sensibilities and tragedies behind these things and Poland in particular has the right to be sensitive about what the focus is on when it comes to their fate in WW2.

They of course themselves are causing most of the problem by making sure focus is on this, but still.

[Sheilbh]

Fair point.

In general I don't like this, I just don't like dismissing the overall topic as silly East Europeans being butthurt. As discussed at the start of the thread there are a lot of sensibilities and tragedies behind these things and Poland in particular has the right to be sensitive about what the focus is on when it comes to their fate in WW2.

They of course themselves are causing most of the problem by making sure focus is on this, but still.

Sure. But the pressure group funding the case has close ties to Law and Order. There's also a deliberate (and unpleasant) troll in choosing the name "Polish League Against Defamation" given the century old Anti-Defamation League in the US which fights anti-semitism. That all makes the case more problematic than just a simple libel case.