From the "Black People Arrest Themselves" files

[grumbler]

...It shouldn't cost the guy his job, by any stretch, but it shouldn't have happened and it was stupid. 

I agree.  Gates has many things to offer the university, despite his bigotry and arrogance.

[Caliga]

...It shouldn't cost the guy his job, by any stretch, but it shouldn't have happened and it was stupid. 

I agree.  Gates has many things to offer the university, despite his bigotry and arrogance.

[Admiral Yi]

Have you guys all heard Obama's clarification?  I have zero interest in reading back 5 pages of this thread to see if it has already been mentioned.

[Sheilbh]

The more I hear and see about Gates actions, the more I back away from my original feeling that the arrest was an over-reaction.

I don't care what his academic achievements are or were - that day he acted like a infantile child, and I am surprised you would go to such lengths to excuse his behavior.

I'm not using his academic achievements to excuse his behaviour, I'm using it to counter DS's idea that he's not a 'true academic or scholar' when he demonstrably is.

Having said that we don't arrest children and I find the arrest ridiculous.  I don't think a 67 year old man, with a cane, on his own property should be arrested for being 'tumultuous' no matter what he's saying unless the neighbours have complained about the noise at which point he should have the opportunity to shut up before he's arrested.  For that matter I don't think it should happen to a 17 or a 27 year old either.

[Berkut]

The more I hear and see about Gates actions, the more I back away from my original feeling that the arrest was an over-reaction.

I don't care what his academic achievements are or were - that day he acted like a infantile child, and I am surprised you would go to such lengths to excuse his behavior.

I'm not using his academic achievements to excuse his behaviour, I'm using it to counter DS's idea that he's not a 'true academic or scholar' when he demonstrably is.

Having said that we don't arrest children and I find the arrest ridiculous.  I don't think a 67 year old man, with a cane, on his own property should be arrested for being 'tumultuous' no matter what he's saying unless the neighbours have complained about the noise at which point he should have the opportunity to shut up before he's arrested.  For that matter I don't think it should happen to a 17 or a 27 year old either.

He was giving multiple opportunities to shut up and calm down before he was arrested.

And I disagree - interfering with a police officer trying to do his job is and should be grounds for a short trip to a small cell to think about your dickishness for a while.

[Sheilbh]

He was giving multiple opportunities to shut up and calm down before he was arrested.

What I mean is he was making noise in his own house.  The officer was there to see about a break in.  He found out that it didn't happen and Gates (I think understandably) got angry and started shouting.  Then he was asked to follow the officer outside (because of the acoustics in the kitchen) and the arrest was made.  Which I think is wrong.

If Gates had been loud enough in his house to disturb one of his neighbours and they called the police for that.  Then they should have gone round and asked him to calm down and quiet down, if he didn't, then arrest him.  That would be fine.

And I disagree - interfering with a police officer trying to do his job is and should be grounds for a short trip to a small cell to think about your dickishness for a while.

How did he interfere with the guy doing his job?  He saw there wasn't a break-in and got the guys ID.  I think this is more to do with annoying the officer.  Understandably, given his background (the seminar on racial profiling) he couldn't walk away from Gates because that would almost be accepting that he was a 'racist cop'. 

It has far more, in my opinion, to do with pride and class than race - though I can't be sure.  So, though I think both sides are understandable and sympathetic I don't think it should have reached the stage where it's getting an arrest because I expect better of the police.  In these sort of situations I expect the police to be the ones who are mature and restrained and rise above a situation, rather than making a rather needless arrest, because the police are far more in control of situations.

[grumbler]

He was giving multiple opportunities to shut up and calm down before he was arrested.

Yes, though his supporters seem determined to ignore this.

And I disagree - interfering with a police officer trying to do his job is and should be grounds for a short trip to a small cell to think about your dickishness for a while.

I don't think he was actually interfering with the officer.  What he was doing was screaming at him.  I don't think the arrest was necessary and would probably not have made it in the officer's shoes, but what i find far more interesting than the arrest itself is the characterization of it by Gate's supporters.  Sheilbh's "I find the arrest ridiculous" is just typical.  Why "ridiculous?"  Because it was unnecessary?  Unnecessary doesn't imply "ridiculous."  I suspect the vehemence is due to their own perception of the weakness of their argument.

I also don't buy the age argument that some have made.  First, the officer doesn't know Gates's age (hell, many posters don't seem to know it, as he has aged seven years in two pages of posts).  Second, the law doesn't make distinctions based on age.  Third, it is disineguous to imply that the arguer would change his mind if Gates had been thirty years younger, when the other arguments make it clear that the arguer would not.

So why the age argument?  Appeal to emotion, I am thinking.

[Sheilbh]

I don't think he was actually interfering with the officer.  What he was doing was screaming at him.  I don't think the arrest was necessary and would probably not have made it in the officer's shoes, but what i find far more interesting than the arrest itself is the characterization of it by Gate's supporters.  Sheilbh's "I find the arrest ridiculous" is just typical.  Why "ridiculous?"  Because it was unnecessary?  Unnecessary doesn't imply "ridiculous."  I suspect the vehemence is due to their own perception of the weakness of their argument.

When it's an arrest unnecessary is ridiculous because it's wrong.  The police shouldn't be arresting people unless it's either necessary or to prevent any further escalation or danger (for example if someone's getting very aggressive).

I also don't buy the age argument that some have made.  First, the officer doesn't know Gates's age (hell, many posters don't seem to know it, as he has aged seven years in two pages of posts).  Second, the law doesn't make distinctions based on age.  Third, it is disineguous to imply that the arguer would change his mind if Gates had been thirty years younger, when the other arguments make it clear that the arguer would not.

So why the age argument?  Appeal to emotion, I am thinking.

Yeah there is that.  As I say I don't think a 17 or 27 year old in Gates's situation should have been arrested.  Though, also I do think there's more of an argument that the police could make about feeling threatened.  I think a person half Gates's age would be more in a position to be threatening whereas Gates, at his age, with a cane is at best 'tumultuous'.

[Sheilbh]

Yes, though his supporters seem determined to ignore this.

I think it's a silly point, I said that people should be given the chance to calm down when the police are called out on a breach of the peace.  If they're just shouting people shouldn't operate on the assumption that they may be arrested for it.  Why should he calm down in his own house when it's not a breach of the peace and no complaint has been made by the neighbours?

[grumbler]

What I mean is he was making noise in his own house. 

And outside his house.  He got no warnings until he brought his tirade outside the house, so what happened inside the house seems moot.

The officer was there to see about a break in.  He found out that it didn't happen and Gates (I think understandably) got angry and started shouting. 

Why is it "understandable" that Gates was angered and started shouting?  Because the officer was white?

Then he was asked to follow the officer outside (because of the acoustics in the kitchen) and the arrest was made.  Which I think is wrong.

I think it is wrong to mischaracterize what happened.  the officer stated that, if Gates wanted to ask any more questions, the officer would answer them outside.  Gates made an extremely iinappropriate comment and followed the officer outside yelling, not asking questions.  The officer twice told gates he was in violation of the law (which he was) and would be arrested if he continued to violate the law.  Which I think is questionable judgment, but clearly not a priori "wrong."

If Gates had been loud enough in his house to disturb one of his neighbours and they called the police for that.  Then they should have gone round and asked him to calm down and quiet down, if he didn't, then arrest him.  That would be fine.

If Gates hadn't come back to the US then he wouldn't have been home, but "if" scenarios are silly in this vein.

In these sort of situations I expect the police to be the ones who are mature and restrained and rise above a situation, rather than making a rather needless arrest, because the police are far more in control of situations.

I agree, but not to the extent that I criticize the officer for differing from my position.  He was there and was the one trained in how to handle these types of situations.  He may not have had the kind of discretion we assume he had, or might have had a different set of standards imparted by his training.

[grumbler]

I think it's a silly point, I said that people should be given the chance to calm down when the police are called out on a breach of the peace.  If they're just shouting people shouldn't operate on the assumption that they may be arrested for it.  Why should he calm down in his own house when it's not a breach of the peace and no complaint has been made by the neighbours?

He was given a chance to calm down and warned of the consequences of not doing so.  He could shout inside his house all he wanted (barring complaints from neighbors) and had he chosen to do this he wouldn't have been arrested.  But, while we agree on this point, it isn't relevant because Gates was not in his house when arrested.

[grumbler]

Yeah there is that.  As I say I don't think a 17 or 27 year old in Gates's situation should have been arrested.  Though, also I do think there's more of an argument that the police could make about feeling threatened.  I think a person half Gates's age would be more in a position to be threatening whereas Gates, at his age, with a cane is at best 'tumultuous'.

All true, but none of it relevant.  Gates was not arrested because the police felt threatened by him.  He was arrested because he was disturbing the peace (being 'tumultuous,' if you will).

[CountDeMoney]

I think a person half Gates's age would be more in a position to be threatening whereas Gates, at his age, with a cane is at best 'tumultuous'.

A friend of my father's was responding to a backup call for a domestic violence situation, and arrived to see an elderly couple the whatfor to each other;  he tried to pull the old man off his wife, and in doing so, the wife swung at him.  Punched him right square in the nose, inducing a stroke.  Had to retire on full medical, and spent the next year learning how to walk, talk, and write again.  All from a seventy-something.

Everyone is any situation is potentially threatening.  Something you people, who have never had to deal with that sort of situation, don't ever understand.

[Sheilbh]

What I mean is he was making noise in his own house. 

And outside his house.  He got no warnings until he brought his tirade outside the house, so what happened inside the house seems moot.

The officer asked Gates to accompany him outside.

Why is it "understandable" that Gates was angered and started shouting?  Because the officer was white?

No, because he was being asked to identify himself in his own house.  That would piss off anyone.

I think it is wrong to mischaracterize what happened.  the officer stated that, if Gates wanted to ask any more questions, the officer would answer them outside.  Gates made an extremely iinappropriate comment and followed the officer outside yelling, not asking questions.  The officer twice told gates he was in violation of the law (which he was) and would be arrested if he continued to violate the law.  Which I think is questionable judgment, but clearly not a priori "wrong."

First of all the situation wasn't going to get any worse and the arrest wasn't necessary.  So I think on that it's wrong and more because of the officer's pride (understandably) than anything else.

You're right I mischaracterised, sorry I read shoddily.  What the officer said was that he was leaving and if Gates had any further questions he could follow him out.  That's fine.  But why didn't he leave?

If Gates hadn't come back to the US then he wouldn't have been home, but "if" scenarios are silly in this vein.

I simply meant that this was different from the police being called because of a breach of the peace.

I agree, but not to the extent that I criticize the officer for differing from my position.  He was there and was the one trained in how to handle these types of situations.  He may not have had the kind of discretion we assume he had, or might have had a different set of standards imparted by his training.

I think it was understandably an issue of honour.  I think, given his background, he probably felt a great deal of pride in not being a 'racist cop'.  So when he was called one for him to walk away would have been to accept what Gates had said, that he was a 'racist cop'.  I think that the guy has been more than punished by the press on his door and I feel very sorry for them.

What should have happened after this wrong, unnecessary arrest, was that the charges were dropped and both could hopefully talk it over.  That didn't because Gates was a well-known, well-connected Harvard scholar and after the arrest he's been in control and I think it's very sad that it's become this big a story.  But fundamentally I think that's the issue over all others: neither man could back down.

[grumbler]

A friend of my father's was responding to a backup call for a domestic violence situation, and arrived to see an elderly couple the whatfor to each other;  he tried to pull the old man off his wife, and in doing so, the wife swung at him.  Punched him right square in the nose, inducing a stroke.  Had to retire on full medical, and spent the next year learning how to walk, talk, and write again.  All from a seventy-something.

Everyone is any situation is potentially threatening.  Something you people, who have never had to deal with that sort of situation, don't ever understand.

Interesting, but also off the topic.  Gates wasn't arrested for threatening a police officer, and frankly there were enough cops on the scene by the time of the arrest that it would be hard to argue that Gates was threatening any of them.