Evangelical Christianity and politics - the elephant in the room

[Sheilbh]

Looking around our own country, it's increasingly difficult to refute Patrick Deneen's thesis that liberalism has already failed.

Whenever I read some pinhead's line like this, i wonder what country they refer to as "our country."  The following descriptions don't match any country on earth.  Maybe their country is in Middle Earth.

He's Professor of Political Science and holds the David A. Potenziani Memorial College Chair of Constitutional Studies at Notre Dame, author of "Why Liberalism Failed", has hosted events on the same with Orban and, like Hazony, a "national conservative": "The nation should be above all devoted to efforts to sustain, foster and support the communities that comprise it, and to combat, where necessary and possible, the modern forces that have proven to be so destructive of those constitutive communities."

Again it's not far away from Vermeule's common good integralism.

I don't necessarily think we should worry about these guys teaching at America's universities - same as we shouldn't worry about Marxists in academia. But I do think they represent a different and new strand of American conservatism - in many ways thet've built this intellectual framework around Trump's victory and I think this is the stuff that will be picked up on by Trumpist candidates in the future. I think the more interesting thing about them is the way they engage with the wider political debate (possibly because Trump was in power) so Marxist professors tend to be stuck in the academy, with limited ability to shape conversation among Democrats. Perhaps because these guys have "an explanation" for Trump - they've published in mainstream journals of the right in the US, they've held conferences with lots of other mainstream think-tankers, they've written in the Atlantic to explain their views etc.

[Syt]

I think the more interesting thing about them is the way they engage with the wider political debate (possibly because Trump was in power) so Marxist professors tend to be stuck in the academy, with limited ability to shape conversation among Democrats

I think Marxists are at least as far removed from Democrats than the Democrats are from the current Republican mainstream.

[mongers]

Salazar rarely used his secret police to suppress political dissent.

This is line jumped out at me.

No mention of his disastrous colonial policy of trying to hold onto an empire long after the winds of change had started to blow.

[The Larch]

I saw that article posted on Twitter recently and it was rightly eviscerated in the comments for the amount of falsehoods it includes. The same author has a similarly barf-inducing article that touches on Franco as well.

If the American religious right is looking for examples to follow amongst the Iberian autocrats of old then it's not really in a good mental place at the moment.

Does he have one about the Austrian Ständerepublik? I feel he would love it, too (Christian conservative, anti-socialist; though he would have to explain away their anti-free market capitalist streak). Plus, they have a convenient martyr in Dollfuß, who was killed by Nazis!

Don't think so, I've just checked his back catalogue of articles and he only seems to have that couple of articles, he seems to focus more on current stuff. Shelbh, he seems to write about tensions in the US Catholic Church, is that how you got to know about him?

[Duque de Bragança]

Salazar rarely used his secret police to suppress political dissent.

This is line jumped out at me.

No mention of his disastrous colonial policy of trying to hold onto an empire long after the winds of change had started to blow.

Some democracy I could mention made the same mistakes though. Neo-colonialism (à la Foccart/Françafrique) was too hypocritical for him I guess

[Sheilbh]

Don't think so, I've just checked his back catalogue of articles and he only seems to have that couple of articles, he seems to focus more on current stuff. Shelbh, he seems to write about tensions in the US Catholic Church, is that how you got to know about him?

No to be honest I just saw this piece doing the rounds.

But you're right - looking him up he's editor of Crisis which is a conservative, Catholic magazine on the right but also Catholic Herald a more mainstream conservative paper and the American Spectator, plus American Conservative (which is also home to Rod Dreher of the "Benedict Option").

This is a great example why I think the Catholic angle is really important here - he's very much on the Catholic right side of the internal debate in the US and sceptical of Francis, pro-Cardinal Sarah etc. I don't think Trump thinks deeply about these issues. But I think the people who do and are trying to construct an ideological framework to explain Trump (and how you replicate 2016) are really influenced by this wing of Catholic thinking - plus writers like Yoram Hazony who is very close to the Netanyahus. Even if lots of their voters and pitch is evangelical. It's also a big part of why you'll see them talking about Salazar and Franco

[Sheilbh]

Some democracy I could mention made the same mistakes though. Neo-colonialism (à la Foccart/Françafrique) was too hypocritical for him I guess

I mean, mainly France, right?

Which is ongoing - see the latest iteration of Macron's view on Algeria.

[Duque de Bragança]

Some democracy I could mention made the same mistakes though. Neo-colonialism (à la Foccart/Françafrique) was too hypocritical for him I guess

I mean, mainly France, right?

Which is ongoing - see the latest iteration of Macron's view on Algeria.

Precisely, though ™Winds or Change™ or not some other colonial power had to fight two colonial wars to properly decolonize. 

Bad example, since Algeria was never part of Françafrique and Macron is quite the pro-repentance identity politics lackey to get banlieue votes, at least officially.

[The Larch]

Don't think so, I've just checked his back catalogue of articles and he only seems to have that couple of articles, he seems to focus more on current stuff. Shelbh, he seems to write about tensions in the US Catholic Church, is that how you got to know about him?

No to be honest I just saw this piece doing the rounds.

But you're right - looking him up he's editor of Crisis which is a conservative, Catholic magazine on the right but also Catholic Herald a more mainstream conservative paper and the American Spectator, plus American Conservative (which is also home to Rod Dreher of the "Benedict Option").

This is a great example why I think the Catholic angle is really important here - he's very much on the Catholic right side of the internal debate in the US and sceptical of Francis, pro-Cardinal Sarah etc. I don't think Trump thinks deeply about these issues. But I think the people who do and are trying to construct an ideological framework to explain Trump (and how you replicate 2016) are really influenced by this wing of Catholic thinking - plus writers like Yoram Hazony who is very close to the Netanyahus. Even if lots of their voters and pitch is evangelical. It's also a big part of why you'll see them talking about Salazar and Franco

By the way, I re-read the article in which he dealt with Franco (you can find it here if you're interested: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/2020-america-or-1935-spain/), and he also name drops Vermeule, which you mentioned earlier.

Btw, here are his pearls regarding Franco and Spain in the 30s. His main thesis appears to be that Franco and his gang were actually the victims and opressed for being catholics, and that they were justified in overthrowing the Republic for that:

And while Franco didn't start the Spanish Civil War, he sure ended it.

That's false, he sure started it, he was part of the military cabal that triggered the July 1936 coup.

Whatever you want to say about the Caudillo, he was fighting a defensive war.

No he wasn't, him and his colleagues wanted to topple the lawful democratic government of the country.

What would you have had Spaniards do as the Red Terror washed over their country? Just smile and take it? Even left-wing historians will now grudgingly admit that the left-wing Republicanos provoked the war by terrorizing Christians and conservatives.

Bullshit to the nth degree. The Red Terror (dwarfed by the White Terror that also took place) only took place once the government authority cracked after the military coup and uncontrolled militias started roaming around. And no sane historian will blame the Republic for provoking the SCW.

The corolary of the diatribe is, of course, that it's the left's fault that right wingers are becoming illiberal, because they feel threatened:

My point is simply this: progressives are making us think illiberal thoughts—and just as we were beginning to sour on liberal democracy, too. If the Left forces the Right to fight a defensive war, as they did in Spain, nobody will be pleased with the outcome—least of all our leftist friends.

So yeah, it's the left the one that is provoking the right into becoming violent. 

[Sheilbh]

Precisely, though ™Winds or Change™ or not some other colonial power had to fight two colonial wars to properly decolonize. 

Bad example, since Algeria was never part of Françafrique and Macron is quite the pro-repentance identity politics lackey to get banlieue votes, at least officially.

I meant more this: "'No repentance nor apologies' for colonial abuses in Algeria, says Macron"
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210120-no-repentance-nor-apologies-for-colonial-abuses-in-algeria-says-macron?ref=tw_i

It has struck me that despite all the deliberate culture warmonging in the UK (and all of the content about it) that even Tory ministers tend to be to the left of, say, centrist/liberal leaders in France or Belgium. It's surprising, but probably part of that Anglo-American political sphere v continental politics.

So yeah, it's the left the one that is provoking the right into becoming violent. 

Yeah - the victimhood of the Christian right in the US is, I think, essential to where we are now. If it's not them positioning themselves as like the Early Church, or quoting Solzhenitsyn, or making genuinely repulsive comparisons between themselves and Iraqi Christians or Copts - or in this case the SCW. Though, note, that they're identifying with nuns and other victims of the red terror - not with the Catholics in institutional power throughout Spain who they more closely resemble.

[Duque de Bragança]

Precisely, though ™Winds or Change™ or not some other colonial power had to fight two colonial wars to properly decolonize. 

Bad example, since Algeria was never part of Françafrique and Macron is quite the pro-repentance identity politics lackey to get banlieue votes, at least officially.

I meant more this: "'No repentance nor apologies' for colonial abuses in Algeria, says Macron"
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210120-no-repentance-nor-apologies-for-colonial-abuses-in-algeria-says-macron?ref=tw_i

It has struck me that despite all the deliberate culture warmonging in the UK (and all of the content about it) that even Tory ministers tend to be to the left of, say, centrist/liberal leaders in France or Belgium. It's surprising, but probably part of that Anglo-American political sphere v continental politics.

That would be complete U-Turn. Macron is a well-known demagogue telling each of his audiences what they want to hear, contradicting himself regularly such as no, but I am skeptical as for the actual policy consquences.

I see it's not Macron saying it which makes it moot.

There will be "no repentance nor apologies" for the occupation of Algeria or the bloody eight-year war that ended French rule, Macron's office said, adding that the French leader would instead take part in "symbolic acts" aimed at promoting reconciliation.

Benjamin Stora's report

Former trotsko, still very politically engaged to the left. Colour me skeptical.

[The Minsky Moment]

Michael Warren Davis

He's a professional troll masquerading as a cultural critic. He's wrote the article about repealing the 19th amendment (women's suffrage) on the 100th anniversary. of its passage. He is in his 20s and a fairly recent convert. 

[The Larch]

If he's in his 20s he does a great job hiding it.

[Sheilbh]

And the convert point isn't surprising - the right-wing, political wing of American Catholicism is stuffed to the gills with a certain sort of convert. They were normally very taken by the intellectualism of Benedict and very into the aesthetics of ultra old-school clerics (e.g. Archbishop Burke). It's why, as I say, I think they're in many ways a political project within a religion rather than a religious project within a political movement.

[Syt]

If he's in his 20s he does a great job hiding it.

Stephen Miller is only 35, too.