Quo Vadis GOP?

[Norgy]

Italy was a mess in the 70s with various terrorist factions.

Thankfully, now one of them is in government.

[Sheilbh]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories - except about post-war Italian politics where they all appear to be true

[garbon]

I'm not a fan of anyone getting assassinated. But I also am not entirely convinced it should matter less when it is only the 'little people' who get killed by guns.

In fact, I'm not sure why you put CEOs in that same category.

You may be too young to remember Rote Armee Fraktion in Germany. They went after CEOs. Well. They went after several public figures.

I'm not making a claim that political assassinations (or assassinations of public figures) are great.

I'm reacting to claims like this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c206zm81z4gt?post=asset%3A9400f006-a424-4090-b06d-e30844baacaf#post

Phil Lyman, former Republican state representative in Utah, had been handing out baseball caps with Kirk shortly before the shooting.

He tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I was on the stage with him when he started talking.

"I left - I went to find some other people, so I wasn't next to him when he was shot.

"I don't know if I am happy about that or if I wish I could have been there."

Speaking of the shooting, Lyman says: "3,000 kids basically watched someone shot right in front of them - it was really traumatic."

"[This is] a really pivotal point in America - he was probably the most influential person for young people especially in the conservative movement," he continues.

"There's going to be some real repercussions here and what I hope happens is people understand what Charlie stood for - his Christian values, his love of family and freedom and that they don't get scared away from that because I believe that's what someone is trying to do is scare us away from those principles."

Personally the epidemic of teens murdering each other in my area of London* (including machete attacks on public buses in broad daylight) is a much more significant threat to public order than the death of a gun nut who I've thought of no more than a handful of times in my life. Well except with the potential political hay the Republicans will make of this given they already know it was an act of political violence conducted by the left when there isnt even an identified suspect yet.

*though really more representative example as I know my area isn't the only place where this is happening in London.

[garbon]

I think yes to Kardashian - agree on Thompson not being about free speech. But I think a political culture is heading into dangerous territory when there's political violence like this or assassinations on the streets - even if the two aren't linked.

I'd add that I also think the beneficiary is almost always whoever claims the mantle of the "party of order".

I would agree we are in a mess if more and more people are so jaded about the 'system' (I'm thinking governmental functions like executive, legislative and judical but also corporate domination) that this becomes a common occurrence. It will be signs that of increasing disaffection with the American project.

[Josquius]

"[This is] a really pivotal point in America - he was probably the most influential person for young people especially in the conservative movement," he continues.

Was he?
Am I that out of touch that I only have the vaguest name recognition?

I don't see how. Even as they are being shot at (and killed), conservatives are still defending the 2nd amendment.

Hopefully enough people are recognising militas aren't stopping fascism.

[HVC]

Truthfully I only knew of him through the gun nut who looks like butt-head memes. But then again I'm neither young, conservative, nor American so I don't know if he was the voice of that group.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories - except about post-war Italian politics where they all appear to be true

Then it's no longer a theory 

[Josquius]

Maybe I'm mad... But was there this much fuss back when those Minnesota politicians were killed?
There's comments from world leaders around this... I don't remember Starmer or others saying anything with the previous shootings.

[Grey Fox]

"[This is] a really pivotal point in America - he was probably the most influential person for young people especially in the conservative movement," he continues.

Was he?
Am I that out of touch that I only have the vaguest name recognition?

I don't see how. Even as they are being shot at (and killed), conservatives are still defending the 2nd amendment.

Hopefully enough people are recognising militas aren't stopping fascism.

He was a younger generation's Joe Rogan.

[DGuller]

The line is where DGuller set it.

It is not more pernicious to public order per se, but it is more pernicious to freedom of speech, and thus the functioning of our political system.

What does DGuller have to do with this? I didn't see him talking about that and my post was in reply to Syt.

I think my hypothetical question still stands: If Kim Kardashian was assassinated while talking about prison reform would that be 'pernicious to freedom of speech, and thus the functioning of our political system.'

New question: What 'freedom of speech' was threatened when CEO Brian Thompson was assassinated (which is only recent CEO assassination that comes to mind that Syt might have been referencing)?

I didn't say anything, but what Syt said was very sensible, so I can see why Yi assumed it was me.  I will generalize it as follows: any murder that is designed to impact the actions of people, because they now have to take the possibility of violence into account due to an example being set, is an enhanced level of violence.  CEOs that now have to consider the possibility of murderous backlash, justified or not, when making decisions in their line of work, because of an example set by Luigi.  This concept doesn't always apply to high profile targets, teachers who get murdered for Mohammed-related activities fall into the same categories, but usually it's the murder of high-profile people that terrorizes.

[Sheilbh]

Maybe I'm mad... But was there this much fuss back when those Minnesota politicians were killed?
There's comments from world leaders around this... I don't remember Starmer or others saying anything with the previous shootings.

I don't think so.

Although I think part of this is that it is in some way a media event (as well as a murder) because it was filmed and live-streamed and millions have seen the footage (which I think is bad) - and a manhunt (see the attention Mangione got).

It's already packaged for the true crime consumer/content producer.

[Norgy]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories - except about post-war Italian politics where they all appear to be true

You mean Gladio, I suppose.

I think it's well-proven that anti-communist right-wing nuts were behind that train station bombing attack.
Aldo Moro, a bloody prime minister, was murdered by Brigado Rosso.

Thing is, it actually connects with NATO plans for stay-behind groups if the Red Army came at us.
Those plans are near declassification by date now. It will be interesting to read them.

I learnt that my old boss at my newspaper was one of the stay-behind groups where I live.
And it was a Labour party newspaper.

garbon, machete attacks have become common here as well.
I have seen youths almost beat each others to death with iron rods.
The reason?
Some brother defending his sister's honour.

Gun violence is more rare in Norway, but, boy, we know how to beat each others up.
I have no clue as to why there is such an increase in youth violence. I don't blame immigrants, because white boys are really those who do this the most.
"He disrespected me"
"So you hit him with a tire iron?"
"What else could I do?"

There is more cocaine and variants of amphetamine here now. When I was young, we brawled when drunk, and couldn't hit a barn door with a fist, usually.
Some broke bottles and tried to gut you, sure, but it is fairly low-key compared to what I see now. In a small town in rural Norway. Take that last part into account.

[garbon]

I didn't say anything, but what Syt said was very sensible, so I can see why Yi assumed it was me.  I will generalize it as follows: any murder that is designed to impact the actions of people, because they now have to take the possibility of violence into account due to an example being set, is an enhanced level of violence.  CEOs that now have to consider the possibility of murderous backlash, justified or not, when making decisions in their line of work, because of an example set by Luigi.

Okay but a couple things.

One don't we think that they should have maybe had to consider the impact of their actions before being threatened? As in, CEOs (of a certain size business) make decisions all the time that can severly harm or lead to the proximate death of members of the public. Wouldn't it be desirable for the public good that they actually weigh up those factors? Particularly so on a consistent basis.

Two, perhaps perception is that CEOs aren't consistently thinking about public harm reduction and we have a system that doesn't provide them significant enough consequences to actually care vs. pay fines in places where that lack of care for public harm broke a law. In which case, the Mangiones of the world are a symptom of people's frustration with what they perceive as a broken system.

I'm not saying that it is a good thing that now CEOs get incentivised to 'care' by murderous threats, and I would very much prefer a system where that is not the case. But I also think it is important to reflect on a system that generates such outcomes beyond simply denouncing violence.

This concept doesn't always apply to high profile targets, teachers who get murdered for Mohammed-related activities fall into the same categories, but usually it's the murder of high-profile people that terrorizes.

Terrorises those high-profile people, no? Not John Q Public. I might be wrong but I'm not sure Brian Thompsons murder changed how all of us here act.

[garbon]

Maybe I'm mad... But was there this much fuss back when those Minnesota politicians were killed?
There's comments from world leaders around this... I don't remember Starmer or others saying anything with the previous shootings.

I don't think so.

Although I think part of this is that it is in some way a media event (as well as a murder) because it was filmed and live-streamed and millions have seen the footage (which I think is bad) - and a manhunt (see the attention Mangione got).

It's already packaged for the true crime consumer/content producer.

I think a big part is also because Kirk is more of a media personality and has important fans. State senators do not operate in that same arena and draw less interest. Also there's not much benefit to the Republicans to talk up violence on the enemy vs their own.

[Valmy]

Was he?
Am I that out of touch that I only have the vaguest name recognition?

You aren't. I am pretty plugged into American political bullshit and while I was aware of Kirk, he was just one of many similar figures.