Quo Vadis GOP?

[DGuller]

That's very much a wo-edged sword.  China is implementing your suggestion, and it isn't going well for the average Chinese person.

Of course it is, which is why people are justifiably averse to the very concept.  Unfortunately it's very hard to have a system where you need to find a balance for optimal results, without opening yourself up to missing in one direction or another.  It would be easier and safer to build a system that relies solely on absolutist concepts that can be administered algorithmically without human judgment, but unfortunately no one invented such a system yet.

Democracy is an exercise at figuring out the minimum set of freedoms that need to be curtailed, and to what extent, in order to protect democracy itself, as well as to protect citizens from some of the externalities of fellow citizens exercising their freedoms.  The optimal answer may change as the threat to democracy and externalities change with technology or other external circumstances.  The total and absolute freedom of speech today won't give you much freedom tomorrow if it allows an authoritarian regime to take power and destroy democracy.

[alfred russel]

Not until we concede that in the 21st century, free speech may need more limits placed on it than it needed in the 20th century, due to technological advances in propaganda technology.

Maybe we can conclude that "alls well that ends well", but democracy was rather touch and go for most of the 20th century, and anti-democratic forces made significant use of advances in propaganda technology.

Bigger picture, democracy has probably only been globally accepted as the best form of government by a majority of global citizens for a few decades in all of human history, and those of us coming of age as the iron curtain fell may be the most pro democratic of all time.

[Eddie Teach]

-accepted as the best realistic form of government. The absolute best would be me as God-emperor. 

[Valmy]

So is there something that can be done about Fox News?

IMO they're undermining democracy in the US and have been for decades.

Not until we concede that in the 21st century, free speech may need more limits placed on it than it needed in the 20th century, due to technological advances in propaganda technology.

I think we are already doing that a bit. We will see if the cure is worse than the disease.

[Valmy]

On several occasions now, Fox has defended its "news anchors" by saying they are entertainment personalities that are deliberately trafficking in hyperbole, not facts.

Seriously? Holy shit.

As one example - from McDougal v. Fox News Network, LLC (SDNY 2020)

Fox News first argues that, viewed in context, Mr. Carlson cannot be understood to have been stating facts, but instead that he was delivering an opinion using hyperbole for effect . . .As Defendant notes, Mr. Carlson himself aims to "challenge[] political correctness and media bias." Def. Br. at 14. This "general tenor" of the show should then inform a viewer that he is not "stating actual facts" about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in"exaggeration" and "non-literal commentary."  Fox persuasively argues, see Def Br. at 13-15, that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer "arrives with an appropriate amount of skepticism" about the statements he makes.

What the hell? That doesn't even make sense. He is trying to oppose bias and misleading ideologies by engaging in...saying non-true things? What?

[The Brain]

I think it's quite possible that we've had peak democracy. The demand for democracy just isn't very strong. Which strikes me as destructive, but democracy ending by the will of the people makes at least some sense.

[Berkut]

So is there something that can be done about Fox News?

IMO they're undermining democracy in the US and have been for decades.

Not until we concede that in the 21st century, free speech may need more limits placed on it than it needed in the 20th century, due to technological advances in propaganda technology.

I would point out that "yellow journalism" has been a thing in the USA since, I don't know....always?

I don't know that we need to do anything about Fox in particular, but I would like to see how we could adjust incentives within modern journalism to make sober journalism more attractive then sensationalism.

[Berkut]

I think it's quite possible that we've had peak democracy. The demand for democracy just isn't very strong. Which strikes me as destructive, but democracy ending by the will of the people makes at least some sense.

The data does not suggest that.




http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/polity1.htm

It does not look at all like democracy has peaked.

[alfred russel]

Berkut, unless I'm reading the data incorrectly (I could be it isn't entirely clear), it looks like your website is classifying places like Hungary and Russia in the democracy bucket. Which is a perspective... but isn't really in line with the discussion here.

[DGuller]

I would point out that "yellow journalism" has been a thing in the USA since, I don't know....always?

It was, what I'm arguing is that it's more effective now.  Maybe a hundred years ago the cure for yellow journalism was worse than the disease, due to the lesser potency of the disease.  In the age of Facebook microtargeted propaganda or reckless engagement algorithms turning people into zombies living in alternative reality, with no apparent pathway of shocking them back into fact-based reality, it may be that now disease has evolved into a more dangerous strain that warrants stronger response with more severe side effects.

[Berkut]

Berkut, unless I'm reading the data incorrectly (I could be it isn't entirely clear), it looks like your website is classifying places like Hungary and Russia in the democracy bucket. Which is a perspective... but isn't really in line with the discussion here.

You can reasonably argue the particulars of course, but the overall trend is pretty clear.

I think they actually classify Hungary as a anocracy - partial democracy (something they moved the USA into in 2020 as well, btw).

But it looks like Hungrary in particular is based on 2010 data.

In any case, I think there is reason to be worried, but the overall trend is generally rather positive evn over just the last 40 years.

[Berkut]

I would point out that "yellow journalism" has been a thing in the USA since, I don't know....always?

It was, what I'm arguing is that it's more effective now.  Maybe a hundred years ago the cure for yellow journalism was worse than the disease, due to the lesser potency of the disease.  In the age of Facebook microtargeted propaganda or reckless engagement algorithms turning people into zombies living in alternative reality, with no apparent pathway of shocking them back into fact-based reality, it may be that now disease has evolved into a more dangerous strain that warrants stronger response with more severe side effects.

I don't disagree with all this in theory, I would just rather consider how to think about this as a market that i not well aligned rather then going straight to the tool of greater authoritarianism.

[alfred russel]

In any case, I think there is reason to be worried, but the overall trend is generally rather positive evn over just the last 40 years.

Of course the trend is positive over the last 40 years. That includes the collapse of most communist governments!

The question is what the trend will be during the 21st century, and I'm not sure the trend thus far is positive.

[Barrister]

Berkut, unless I'm reading the data incorrectly (I could be it isn't entirely clear), it looks like your website is classifying places like Hungary and Russia in the democracy bucket. Which is a perspective... but isn't really in line with the discussion here.

You can reasonably argue the particulars of course, but the overall trend is pretty clear.

I think they actually classify Hungary as a anocracy - partial democracy (something they moved the USA into in 2020 as well, btw).

But it looks like Hungrary in particular is based on 2010 data.

In any case, I think there is reason to be worried, but the overall trend is generally rather positive evn over just the last 40 years.

The trend over the past 40 years has been very positive.

The trend over the last 10 years has not.

[The Brain]

The significant weakening of democracy in the US in recent years is one of the things that I find very disturbing. And in Sweden openly supporting democracy is best avoided if you don't want to be called evil, which is very different from the situation say 30 years ago.