What does a BIDEN Presidency look like?

[Berkut]

If someone put words in my mouth that I praised Biden for not succumbing to black people, I would absolutely take it like Berkut would.  Most reasonable people would, I suspect.  And just to clear up on the timeline, Berkut wasn't the first recipient of a casually thrown racism allusion, I was, so that's why the discussion about garbon accusing people of racism was already active.

Yeah, I was somewhat surprised by your reaction as well. I obviously don't agree that your reaction and Berkut's were reasonable. They seemed pretty unreasonable to me, in fact. But I know you and Berkut to be pretty reasonable people so there's something to be figured out.

I mean, it could be that I'm just a disingenuous virtue signalling wokeist or some such but (unsurprisingly, I hope) I don't think that's it either.

I think it may be wise to pause focusing on people's thin skin for a second, and consider it from the POV of the people with the thin skin.  Maybe people in the US just really don't like fielding accusation of racism of varying subtlety as part of a debate? 

Yes indeed. Maybe the time has come to consider the point of view of heterosexual middle class white men whose voices have been so viciously suppressed in recent times

That's the kind of thing that you object to, right? I linked your argument to your identity, and suggested that maybe that makes it less relevant or persuasive. I mean I get it. That's me too, and I get shit like that thrown at me as well at times. It can be annoying, frustrating, and sometimes pernicious depending on the context.

Personally, though, the shit garbon posted doesn't even fucking rate. Your mileage obviously differs. I don't think what I said about "the time has come to consider the feelings of white folks..." etc to rate either. Not sure how you take it.

But maybe you're right. Maybe wokeness is a counter-productive plague that undermines the ability of the non-Fascist centre and left to get good and useful things done. Maybe the pendulum has swung too far and average white dudes like us are being pushed around too much by people wielding cries of racism as a cudgel (and other -isms, for that matter). It does kind of feel like it sometimes. But at the same time, the long tradition of white folks telling non-white folks that they're incorrect in the way they react to the racism they experience continues going strong. And non-white folks still seem to be experiencing some pretty egregious shit, in spite of how far we've gotten. And if you care about that - and I believe you do - then that's a circle that has to be squared... and I don't really think the readings you took from garbon's posts helped that.

Then again, this is languish and maybe the point is to get into shit-fights rather than anything constructive. I guess there's that.

I cannot even begin to square all that with garbon accusing people of racism because they object to prominent democratic politicians calling to dissolve the police on the grounds that it is counter-productive.

You keep wanting to extend the specific to the general. We all agree on the general!

That doesn't not mean that any particular action taken is by definition useful. And observing that some SPECIFIC action (or set of actions) are counter-productive is not making the claim that the entire general effort is counter productive.

What is the purpose in trying to insist that any particular objection to some specific example of where the rhetoric becomes counter-productive means that the person making the claim must then believe that there is some *general* claim that "Maybe wokeness is a counter-productive plague that undermines the ability of the non-Fascist centre and left to get good and useful things done."

Can't it be that there are SOME things that are counter productive, and if in fact we want to get good and useful things done, we should identify those things and endeavor not to do them? We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? Can't we just pick out the counter-productive things, and keep the rest? Is that an observation that warrants the immediate suggestion that because I am white I cannot possibly have an opinion that is legitimate about what works in convincing,  I don't know, other white Americans that maybe they should pay attention and vote? And whether it makes me a racist or not - is the implication good for actual discourse and discussion?

How is this even up for debate. Someone observed that prominent Democrats calling to actually abolish the police is fucking stupid. Nobody even bothered to try to claim that it isn't - just that SAYING IT IS STUPID is actually the bigger problem.

[Berkut]

Whenever I hear a white person from the US telling us he/she knows better, or disparages wokeism, I always come back to this video, which I encourage anyone to watch and re-watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llci8MVh8J4

I've seen that before.

How does that relate to prominent democrats alienating non-left wing voters by calling for abolishing the police?

And what does that have to do with "white people" having an opinion about whether or not a particular political message is useful to achieving actual political goals?

Would my objection been acceptable if the words had come from Bernie Sanders mouth instead of hers?

[Berkut]

Heres the thing.

All we can do is talk. If you guys have decided that white people have fucked things up so badly that it is legitimate to simply ignore them and what they think about any possible topic that might touch on race (which is, of course, all topics)....ok.

So then what?

How do you go about actually convincing others if you have decided that they aren't allowed to be involved in a discussion?

[HisMajestyBOB]

Biden is kind of awesome. I think I was wrong to rate him as my second to last choice in the Dem candidates.

Who really expected him to be this awesome?
Most seemed to either view him as the safe anti-Trump choice or the moderate choice.

Now if only the Senate would get rid of the filibuster, and be more than 50-50...

[Barrister]

That may be the worst slander I've ever seen in American politics.  I would much rather have a crazy Trump supporter than a Democrat who sank this low.

I almost hate to say this, but...

this is a primary race.  Wright's opponent accusing her of murdering her husband is almost certainly supporting another republican.

[Zoupa]

Whenever I hear a white person from the US telling us he/she knows better, or disparages wokeism, I always come back to this video, which I encourage anyone to watch and re-watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llci8MVh8J4

I've seen that before.

How does that relate to prominent democrats alienating non-left wing voters by calling for abolishing the police?

And what does that have to do with "white people" having an opinion about whether or not a particular political message is useful to achieving actual political goals?

Would my objection been acceptable if the words had come from Bernie Sanders mouth instead of hers?

I'm not as eloquent as Oex, garbon, or Kimberly Jones (the lady in the video). All I can talk to is my opinion/experience as a white guy that's on the left of the political spectrum.

It's exhausting having to cater (as a leftist) to non-left-wing voters. Oh let's be careful folks, we don't want to alienate the centrists (read suburban white folks).

It's exhausting always having to be the ones making concessions, while the other side NEVER budges.

It's exhausting having to explain for the millionth time what slogans mean, and focusing on that instead of the incredible issues present in police departments and mentality. There's at least as much ink and electrons used to discuss "defund the police" and how "radical" leftists are so naive and stupid about the issue than about police mentality, behaviour, shootings, procedures, ass-covering and straight-up criminal activities like planting evidence.

It's exhausting seeing the dripping condescension when you guys post stuff like wokeism and associated buzzwords.

It's exhausting and I'm a white male. So when someone who doesn't have your lifelong privilege tells you "hey man can just stop using those terms? It kind of hurtful and annoying", how about you just be a decent dude and do it?

You're not being a maverick, refusing to bow to outrage culture, you're just being an asshole.

[Jacob]

I am saying I am not convinced that you don't understand the intent of garbons post. I am saying it is perfectly obvious what he is doing, and your working hard to come up with a way you can act like it is something other than what it rather obviously is. I don't know that that qualifies as an "agenda", but no, I am not saying it is "equivalent" to trying to suppress black voting - it is simply similar in that both cases have this fake attempt at deniability that nobody actually believes - not even the people claiming to believe it.

In your case it is because you are defending your fellow lefty and you are heavily emotionally invested in the idea that all this concern by everyone over the problems in left wing culture is just right wing bullshit, and in fact there is nothing at all wrong that needs to be addressed. That is incorrect, but hardly as morally reprehensible as the GOP trying to discourage minority voting.

Okay, so you're saying it's obvious to me that your interpretation of garbon's post is correct but I've been arguing against it it because I want to defend my fellow lefty. This is because my emotional investment in leftwing culture means I have to defend it, and I'm doing it with fake deniability that I don't actually believe in.

Thank you for the clarification. I mean, I don't agree, but I'm sure that doesn't surprise you.

I do appreciate your additional clarification that you don't think I'm as bad as racist supporting GOP suppression of Black voters. That's something we agree on. I also don't think I'm as bad as those fuckers and I am happy to say that I don't think you are either.

[Valmy]

I'm not as eloquent as Oex, garbon, or Kimberly Jones (the lady in the video). All I can talk to is my opinion/experience as a white guy that's on the left of the political spectrum.

It's exhausting having to cater (as a leftist) to non-left-wing voters. Oh let's be careful folks, we don't want to alienate the centrists (read suburban white folks).

It's exhausting always having to be the ones making concessions, while the other side NEVER budges.

It's exhausting having to explain for the millionth time what slogans mean, and focusing on that instead of the incredible issues present in police departments and mentality. There's at least as much ink and electrons used to discuss "defund the police" and how "radical" leftists are so naive and stupid about the issue than about police mentality, behaviour, shootings, procedures, ass-covering and straight-up criminal activities like planting evidence.

It's exhausting seeing the dripping condescension when you guys post stuff like wokeism and associated buzzwords.

It's exhausting and I'm a white male. So when someone who doesn't have your lifelong privilege tells you "hey man can just stop using those terms? It kind of hurtful and annoying", how about you just be a decent dude and do it?

You're not being a maverick, refusing to bow to outrage culture, you're just being an asshole.

I mean I sympathize, playing politics is a magnificent amount of tiresome bullshit, but the thing more exhausting than playing politics is losing. I certainly have little interest in finding what bullshit slogan will get public opinion going in the right direction but it is what it is. I doubt it is ever fun.

I don't really see that the other side never budges the conversation has been going in your direction for awhile. I mean we have public support for police reform, we have more and more people wanting marijuana legalized, we have gay marriage, we have more and more support for trans rights, we have more and more support for more medical access. I don't see how we the enlightened centrists have NEVER compromised and NEVER made any motion your way.

[HisMajestyBOB]

The only morally correct position is to never vote GOP.
That doesn't mean the Dems are always good, or always right, but at least they're not actively working in lockstep towards a fascist hellscape.

[garbon]

Whenever I hear a white person from the US telling us he/she knows better, or disparages wokeism, I always come back to this video, which I encourage anyone to watch and re-watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llci8MVh8J4

I've seen that before.

How does that relate to prominent democrats alienating non-left wing voters by calling for abolishing the police?

And what does that have to do with "white people" having an opinion about whether or not a particular political message is useful to achieving actual political goals?

Would my objection been acceptable if the words had come from Bernie Sanders mouth instead of hers?

I'm not as eloquent as Oex, garbon, or Kimberly Jones (the lady in the video). All I can talk to is my opinion/experience as a white guy that's on the left of the political spectrum.

It's exhausting having to cater (as a leftist) to non-left-wing voters. Oh let's be careful folks, we don't want to alienate the centrists (read suburban white folks).

It's exhausting always having to be the ones making concessions, while the other side NEVER budges.

It's exhausting having to explain for the millionth time what slogans mean, and focusing on that instead of the incredible issues present in police departments and mentality. There's at least as much ink and electrons used to discuss "defund the police" and how "radical" leftists are so naive and stupid about the issue than about police mentality, behaviour, shootings, procedures, ass-covering and straight-up criminal activities like planting evidence.

It's exhausting seeing the dripping condescension when you guys post stuff like wokeism and associated buzzwords.

It's exhausting and I'm a white male. So when someone who doesn't have your lifelong privilege tells you "hey man can just stop using those terms? It kind of hurtful and annoying", how about you just be a decent dude and do it?

You're not being a maverick, refusing to bow to outrage culture, you're just being an asshole.

[garbon]

I mean I sympathize, playing politics is a magnificent amount of tiresome bullshit, but the thing more exhausting than playing politics is losing. I certainly have little interest in finding what bullshit slogan will get public opinion going in the right direction but it is what it is. I doubt it is ever fun.

I don't really see that the other side never budges the conversation has been going in your direction for awhile. I mean we have public support for police reform, we have more and more people wanting marijuana legalized, we have gay marriage, we have more and more support for trans rights, we have more and more support for more medical access.

Well recall this video had a context, several years of Trump and it seeming possible we'd end up with an additional 4 years + had/have a supreme court tilted the right. To say the left was winning was a frought proposition and perhaps one more of faith. And while electing Biden was a positive step, a significant portion of our country still voted for Trump despite all of his unsuitablity for president and personally disgusting behaviors.

I put that one bit in bold because will we actually see it happen? How many dead bodies do there need to be before we move that care beyond rhetoric to change? Similarly how many people do we need imprisoned over marijuana before things actually change there? Gay marriage is a tough one as I recall living in one our 'loony left' states where the populace voted to get rid of gay marriage. Only got reinstated when the judges got involved and only became law of the land when our Supreme Court weighed in. Compare and contrast that to the UK which voted in gay marriage.

I don't see how we the enlightened centrists have NEVER compromised and NEVER made any motion your way.

Zoupa probably was a bit strong there but the reality is that is a group slow to promote social change into actual change.

[Admiral Yi]

How many dead bodies do there need to be before we move that care beyond rhetoric to change?

Either infinite or zero, depending on how you look at it.

Infinite, because there will never be a change that satisfies everyone.

Or zero, because there already has been change.

[Eddie Teach]

When you consider history, today's society is actually changing at a whirlwind pace.

[garbon]

When you consider history, today's society is actually changing at a whirlwind pace.

Happily we don't live in the past so not sure the relevance.

[Eddie Teach]

That you'd be a lot happier comparing what is to what was rather than what could be.