JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[Barrister]

The bathroom always seems like such a non-issue.  I think everyone is okay that if you more-or-less look and dress like a woman you can use the woman's washroom.  It seems like it would be more disruptive to everyone to have a trans man (maybe with facial hair) using a women's bathroom.  If you do not attempt to "pass" however you use the bathroom that corresponds to your appearance.

The bigger questions to me revolve around prisons, women's shelters and athletics.

[Sheilbh]

I think there are issues around sports. But they are complicated, nuanced, highly personal and deserving of sensitive treatment. Sadly, I can't think of worse bodies to be handling that sensitively than international sports' governing authorities

See the, I think disgraceful, treatment of Caster Semenya.

[garbon]

Looking at her words, it is clear that my summary of her position is correct, and that the argument that she is "not wanting to allow trans women into ladies' restrooms, changing rooms or women refuges, because they are, after all, actually men and therefore create unsafe spaces for women" is untrue.

Fair enough though it appears that she does think unless you've been granted government license, you aren't really of the opposite gender.

Interesting.  In Virginia, that would be trespassing, but UK law is different.  Do bathrooms in the UK still have labels of mens' and womens'?

Does that mean if a woman in Virginia decides she doesn't want to wait in the long line for women's bathroom and goes in the men's, that she could be brought up on trespassing? What about a janitor cleaning a bathroom not of their gender?

Do we have a legal definition of "high number?"  What "right" is being restricted here?

Any evidence then beyond say the anecdotal cases that viper wants to cite? And the right to use a bathroom that feels comfortable for them?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/single-sex-and-separate-services-for-men-and-women-when-discrimination-is-allowed/

Transgender people mustn't be excluded from separate or single sex services provided to people of their acquired gender, unless there's a good enough reason. This can be the case whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate. A gender recognition certificate is a document which allows you to be legally recognised in your acquired gender.

[garbon]

The bathroom always seems like such a non-issue.

Correction, it seems like it should be a non-issue.

[DGuller]

See the, I think disgraceful, treatment of Caster Semenya.

How should you treat her?  The reason women's sports exist is because women will not be competitive on the same field as men in the vast majority of sports.  There is a demand to see women competing, so hence we have a category where participants are restricted in order to protect the target demographic from being competed out of the sport.  I find it disgraceful that we can't have an open discussion as to where exactly the cut-off should be before the intent of have womens' sports is mooted, and that people like Martina Navratilova are getting the cancel culture treatment for bringing it up.

[The Brain]

I think there are issues around sports. But they are complicated, nuanced, highly personal and deserving of sensitive treatment. Sadly, I can't think of worse bodies to be handling that sensitively than international sports' governing authorities

See the, I think disgraceful, treatment of Caster Semenya.

What exactly are the issues around sports?

[Sheilbh]

How should you treat her?  The reason women's sports exist is because women will not be competitive on the same field as men in the vast majority of sports.  There is a demand to see women competing, so hence we have a category where participants are restricted in order to protect the target demographic from being competed out of the sport.  I find it disgraceful that we can't have an open discussion as to where exactly the cut-off should be before the intent of have womens' sports is mooted, and that people like Martina Navratilova are getting the cancel culture treatment for bringing it up.

They told her she was needed for a doping monitoring test and then actually ran a lot of tests on different hormones to establish biological sex (the IAAF moved from sex to gender as the criteria in the 90s). The nature of the testing and the results which indicated she was intersex then leaked to the media. It's not actually clear whether Semenya knew that before the IAAF stepped in, you know she was Caster Semenya was assigned female gender at birth, she identifies and has lived all her life as a woman and competed as a woman.

I mean I think it's a pretty disgraceful way to handle an issue - but more important than an issue it's a disgraceful way to treat a person who, let's not forget, has not been accused of cheating or of entering illegally. So you don't treat her like that, for example.

There are complicated issues around sport that definitely deserve consideration. I'm not sure that I'd trust, say, FIFA to handle any of them.

[DGuller]

How should you treat her?  The reason women's sports exist is because women will not be competitive on the same field as men in the vast majority of sports.  There is a demand to see women competing, so hence we have a category where participants are restricted in order to protect the target demographic from being competed out of the sport.  I find it disgraceful that we can't have an open discussion as to where exactly the cut-off should be before the intent of have womens' sports is mooted, and that people like Martina Navratilova are getting the cancel culture treatment for bringing it up.

They told her she was needed for a doping monitoring test and then actually ran a lot of tests on different hormones to establish biological sex (the IAAF moved from sex to gender as the criteria in the 90s). The nature of the testing and the results which indicated she was intersex then leaked to the media. It's not actually clear whether Semenya knew that before the IAAF stepped in, you know she was Caster Semenya was assigned female gender at birth, she identifies and has lived all her life as a woman and competed as a woman.

I mean I think it's a pretty disgraceful way to handle an issue - but more important than an issue it's a disgraceful way to treat a person who, let's not forget, has not been accused of cheating or of entering illegally. So you don't treat her like that, for example.

There are complicated issues around sport that definitely deserve consideration. I'm not sure that I'd trust, say, FIFA to handle any of them.

Ok, definitely the medical issues have to handled with respect and privacy, no argument there.  What I find nuts is considering it off-limits to discuss whether intersex or transgender athletes qualify to compete in women's sport.

[Sheilbh]

Ok, definitely the medical issues have to handled with respect and privacy, no argument there.  What I find nuts is considering it off-limits to discuss whether intersex or transgender athletes qualify to compete in women's sport.

Right - but I've not said that. I've said given the record at FIFA and IAAF etc I have questions about their ability or even will to discuss that in any way that shows respect for the individuals involved like Semenya. It was handled very, very badly with her. Even the rule change by IAAF because of Semenya was done without sort of consultation etc (CAS found it was discriminatory but proportionate) and I think someone on the IAFF board said there was an easy option: Semenya could take hormone-lowering drugs or have elective surgery). We're not very far from Sepp Blatter (whose idea to improve women's sports: tighter tops and shorter shorts).

I'm sure if gender issues were somehow linked to tax exempt status or a way of evading the jurisdiction of any countries courts that international sporting bodies would be all over it

[Josquius]

Intersex and transgender people in sport is a valid and complex topic of discussion with no easier answers.
Alas all too often it's just used as a crowbar by those opposed to transgender rights in general to try and push their agenda which goes way beyond what level of sport a transexual person should be able to compete in and under what criteria.

[grumbler]

Sort of. The first thing to note is that domestic violence centres already have a legal obligation to risk assess any person they take in and that doesn't change because of changes to the laws around gender recognition, it's a separate issue around their duty of care. So on a practical level most women's domestic violence shelters already take trans women with, it should be noted, few incidents.

The second is the current, lengthy process is as you say that you have to live in the gender you identify for a two year period. There's lots of evidence you need to gather, including a diagnosis by two doctors. It then gets adjudicated by a legal and medical panel. I'm not sure if it's been removed but the also had a spousal veto - even if a couple was separated (the UK doesn't have no-fault divorce I don't think). Obviously that's particularly an issue if there's also domestic violence.

But the effect of that isn't that you suddenly get access to all of these hitherto banned spaces - it's that the sex on your birth certificate and passport gets changed. It should be noted that the proposal to change the law would move us to the position in Ireland, Belgium, Spain, Argentina and other countries - so in terms of risks from this I think we can look at those countries and see their experience rather than just spitball concerns, when that has a direct effect on people's lives.

Now the practical issue is presumably until then a transwoman, living as a woman who hasn't been approved yet - or maybe just vetoed by her spouse - should continue to use the men's bathroom? Or the disabled loo? Or is it okay for her to use the woman's loo?

Again, I am not aware of the law in the UK.  Garbon seems to think that it is perfectly legal for men to use the women's loo right now, so there doesn't seem to be an issue. 

In a state like Virginia, where it is primarily addressed as a trespassing issue, the question of an XY in an XX bathroom would be their intent.  If they believed themselves to be a woman able to rightly use that space, then it wouldn't matter if they were trans or cis.  That's why conservatives keep trying to get laws passed to specify that trans women cannot use women's restrooms - its because the law currently allows it.

I don't think that it is hateful for Rowling to suggest that an XY who wants to enter a space for women to be sincere in their belief that they are women.  Maybe the details of how to go about that are more complex than she believes, but the venom spewed on her seems to this outsider to be wholly unwarranted.

[grumbler]

Fair enough though it appears that she does think unless you've been granted government license, you aren't really of the opposite gender.

It probably appears that way to you if you are looking to be offended by what she said.  She never said that, of course.

Does that mean if a woman in Virginia decides she doesn't want to wait in the long line for women's bathroom and goes in the men's, that she could be brought up on trespassing?

She probably could be.

What about a janitor cleaning a bathroom not of their gender?

If the owner of the property has forbidden it, then yes, the janitor would be trespassing.  if the owner allowed it, then it wouldn't.  Trespassing in this context is "to enter unlawfully upon the land of another."

Any evidence then beyond say the anecdotal cases that viper wants to cite?

Ask Viper.  I have no idea, and the issue isn't relevant to my argument.

And the right to use a bathroom that feels comfortable for them?

From whence comes this "right?"  If I would feel most comfortable coming into your house or business to use your bathroom, can you deny me that right?

Transgender people mustn't be excluded from separate or single sex services provided to people of their acquired gender, unless there's a good enough reason. This can be the case whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate. A gender recognition certificate is a document which allows you to be legally recognised in your acquired gender.

And the whole issue Rowlings is raising is whether or not someone is transgender when they claim to be, and what dangers await women if males can access women's spaces just by stating that they are transgender.  If being concerned for women's safety makes one a TERF, then I think trans people have lost the war because of self-inflicted wounds.

[merithyn]

I think there are issues around sports. But they are complicated, nuanced, highly personal and deserving of sensitive treatment. Sadly, I can't think of worse bodies to be handling that sensitively than international sports' governing authorities

See the, I think disgraceful, treatment of Caster Semenya.

[Barrister]

I think there are issues around sports. But they are complicated, nuanced, highly personal and deserving of sensitive treatment. Sadly, I can't think of worse bodies to be handling that sensitively than international sports' governing authorities

See the, I think disgraceful, treatment of Caster Semenya.

While I agree about shitting all over international sports governing bodies, Caster Semenya is a tough case.

I used to think that 'well, her body just produces more testosterone than normal - elite athletes are almost always a bit unusual in their physiology anyways'.

I was listening to a podcast that interviewed an evolutionary biologist talking on the issue of transgenderism, and in particular got into intersex.  His comments were that while yes individuals can physically appear to be somewhere in the middle, fundamentally every person (and animal) can be categorized into one of two categories - people whose bodies are organized around the production of large gametes (eggs), and people whose bodies are organized around the production of small gametes (sperm).  No body in all of the scientific literature has ever been able to produce both large and small gametes.

Caster Semenya has 46,XY DSD.  That is she has a XY chromosones.  People with 46,XY DSD typically have female-appearing genitalia, but have male gonads - that is their bodies are designed around producing small gametes.

Semenya was raised as a woman, should absolutely be called she/her, should use female bathrooms, etc.  But when it comes to elite world class athletics, I'm not sure it's fair to have someone with testes (even if internal) competing as a woman.

[The Brain]

Intersex and transgender people in sport is a valid and complex topic of discussion with no easier answers.

What are the problems?