Covid-19 lockdown check-in

[Jacob]

I believe BB is suggeting that if we all vote Conservative next election, O'Toole will retroactively make it easier to source vaccines.

My point is simply this: that Trudeau has dropped the ball when it came to vaccines.  O'Toole clearly has no power to reverse the flow of time.

So I was pretty close. Your point is "Trudeau sucks, vote Conservative" with no reference to changing temporal causality. Fair enough

[Barrister]

I believe BB is suggeting that if we all vote Conservative next election, O'Toole will retroactively make it easier to source vaccines.

My point is simply this: that Trudeau has dropped the ball when it came to vaccines.  O'Toole clearly has no power to reverse the flow of time.

So I was pretty close. Your point is "Trudeau sucks, vote Conservative" with no reference to changing temporal causality. Fair enough

Why do you read in rabid partisanship into everything I say or do?  Managing a country in the midst of a global pandemic is incredibly challenging and I've been loath to criticize any leader of any political stripe.  But I have been critical of Trudeau on the vaccine front as far as as late last spring when he seemed to pin his hopes on the CanSino vaccine from China.

I don't see how this is a point of argument.  I'm not making an unfair comparison - I'm not expecting Israel's vaccination rates.  But we're sitting as of right now 44th in the world.  Putting aside the vaccine high-flyers, most of Europe seems to be in the 6-8 doses per 100 people.  Canada is at 3.8.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

One of my Twitter follows is Warren Kinsella.  He is (or was) a huge Liberal Party hack - worked with Chretien.  I don't actually like the guy, but sometimes he has interesting things to say.  Anyways he's been relentless on Trudeau and vaccines.

I'm not making any political point beyond this - Trudeau has dropped the ball when it came to vaccines.

[Grey Fox]

That's the point. Trudeau didn't drop the ball. Canada dropped the ball. When Harper was PM.

[Barrister]

That's the point. Trudeau didn't drop the ball. Canada dropped the ball. When Harper was PM.

Good grief - you people accuse me of being a rabid partisan?

Harper hasn't been PM since 2015.  Covid-19 first emerged in 2019.

Yes, perhaps if we had taken a variety of different policy paths we could be world leaders now in vaccine production.  But that's in the past.  I'm not demanding perfection from Trudeau - I just want us to vaccinate as many people per capita as, let's say, Turkey (#12 in the world).

[crazy canuck]

That's the point. Trudeau didn't drop the ball. Canada dropped the ball. When Harper was PM.

Good grief - you people accuse me of being a rabid partisan?

Harper hasn't been PM since 2015.  Covid-19 first emerged in 2019.

Yes, perhaps if we had taken a variety of different policy paths we could be world leaders now in vaccine production.  But that's in the past.  I'm not demanding perfection from Trudeau - I just want us to vaccinate as many people per capita as, let's say, Turkey (#12 in the world).

I have posted a number of articles explaining the problem with creating our own vaccine production facilities.

Maybe if the Conservative argument was not just facile comparisons, they would get more traction.

Certainly there are things that could have been done better.  But the Conservatives need to be a bit more detailed in both their criticism and the alternative they represent.

[Grey Fox]

That's the point. Trudeau didn't drop the ball. Canada dropped the ball. When Harper was PM.

Good grief - you people accuse me of being a rabid partisan?

Harper hasn't been PM since 2015.  Covid-19 first emerged in 2019.

Yes, perhaps if we had taken a variety of different policy paths we could be world leaders now in vaccine production.  But that's in the past.  I'm not demanding perfection from Trudeau - I just want us to vaccinate as many people per capita as, let's say, Turkey (#12 in the world).

Game recognize game.

We can't. Because we have, for 30 years!, made bad policy decision.

[Jacob]

Why do you read in rabid partisanship into everything I say or do?  Managing a country in the midst of a global pandemic is incredibly challenging and I've been loath to criticize any leader of any political stripe.  But I have been critical of Trudeau on the vaccine front as far as as late last spring when he seemed to pin his hopes on the CanSino vaccine from China.

Because you usually can be relied upon to take the anti-Trudeau and/ or Conservative Party line position on every issue. Turns out that's the case here too.

I don't see how this is a point of argument.  I'm not making an unfair comparison - I'm not expecting Israel's vaccination rates.  But we're sitting as of right now 44th in the world.  Putting aside the vaccine high-flyers, most of Europe seems to be in the 6-8 doses per 100 people.  Canada is at 3.8.

It is not a point of argument where we are sitting comparatively when it comes to vaccination rates. The numbers are what the numbers are. We are in agreement.

The question is the degree to whether it's down to Trudeau's alleged incompetence versus structural factors beyond his control and/ or larger policy decisions on which the Libs and Cons have largely been in agreement these last many decades (which is Grey Fox's point).

One of my Twitter follows is Warren Kinsella.  He is (or was) a huge Liberal Party hack - worked with Chretien.  I don't actually like the guy, but sometimes he has interesting things to say.  Anyways he's been relentless on Trudeau and vaccines.

At first I read that as Kinsella following you on Twitter

I'm not making any political point beyond this - Trudeau has dropped the ball when it came to vaccines.

How so? What should he have done differently? What would a Conservative government have done that would have avoided the issues we're having now? We've contracted for significantly more doses than we've received, with the producers cutting shipments for a number of different reasons. What could Trudeau have done to not drop the ball here?

Good grief - you people accuse me of being a rabid partisan?

Harper hasn't been PM since 2015.  Covid-19 first emerged in 2019.

If the reason we can't produce domestic vaccines is due to decisions taken during the Harper years, then it's absolutely fair to lay some of the blame there... isn't it?

Yes, perhaps if we had taken a variety of different policy paths we could be world leaders now in vaccine production.  But that's in the past.  I'm not demanding perfection from Trudeau - I just want us to vaccinate as many people per capita as, let's say, Turkey (#12 in the world).

... but Turkey is relying heavily on Chinese originated vaccinations. I thought you were against those?

[Sheilbh]

It is not a point of argument where we are sitting comparatively when it comes to vaccination rates. The numbers are what the numbers are. We are in agreement.

The question is the degree to whether it's down to Trudeau's alleged incompetence versus structural factors beyond his control and/ or larger policy decisions on which the Libs and Cons have largely been in agreement these last many decades (which is Grey Fox's point).

For what it's worth the UK did not have vaccine manufacturing capacity at the start of the pandemic. The UK government supported an experimental manufacturer for the Oxford/AZ vaccine in February last year (so the research could work in the context of mass production) which is now the most productive site in the UK and have supported the establishment of numerous vaccine manufacturing sites in the UK (including fill and finish) for multiple companies (AZ, Valneva, Curevac). This was in part driven by concerns about the Trump administration restricting supplies of vaccines.

Now that may not be replicable because the UK does have a decent pharma sector (just not vaccine manufacturers) and it has a centre of vaccine research in Oxford. But it doesn't seem that longer term policy decisions meaning there was no vaccine manufacturing capacity in February 2020 necessarily means you have no capacity now.

I think in the long run most reasonable size countries are going to want some form of vaccine manufacturing capacity - especially because of the risk of new variants requiring booster shots.

[Barrister]

At first I read that as Kinsella following you on Twitter

Certainly not.  I have a whopping 15 followers, mostly other lawyers.

How so? What should he have done differently? What would a Conservative government have done that would have avoided the issues we're having now? We've contracted for significantly more doses than we've received, with the producers cutting shipments for a number of different reasons. What could Trudeau have done to not drop the ball here?

What Trudeau should have done is right from early on is worked with Connaught Labs.  This is the company that was sold by Mulroney and still very much exists in Toronto.  Through both carrots and sticks it should have ensured that once a suitable vaccine was developed that it would be sub-licensed to Connaught Labs to be manufactured in Canada.  We should have pulled our very own "Operation Warp Speed".

The reason we bought so many different vaccines is because we were working from behind - other countries had already bought vaccines and had conditions to be amongst the first developed.

... but Turkey is relying heavily on Chinese originated vaccinations. I thought you were against those?

I'm not against things from China.  I think it was obvious though that we couldn't rely on the Chinese, that they would inevitably use the vaccines as a way to obtain leverage over Canada.

[Jacob]

What Trudeau should have done is right from early on is worked with Connaught Labs.  This is the company that was sold by Mulroney and still very much exists in Toronto.  Through both carrots and sticks it should have ensured that once a suitable vaccine was developed that it would be sub-licensed to Connaught Labs to be manufactured in Canada.  We should have pulled our very own "Operation Warp Speed".

That seems reasonable. I wonder why this wasn't done.

I'm not against things from China.  I think it was obvious though that we couldn't rely on the Chinese, that they would inevitably use the vaccines as a way to obtain leverage over Canada.

Fair point.

[crazy canuck]

It is not a point of argument where we are sitting comparatively when it comes to vaccination rates. The numbers are what the numbers are. We are in agreement.

The question is the degree to whether it's down to Trudeau's alleged incompetence versus structural factors beyond his control and/ or larger policy decisions on which the Libs and Cons have largely been in agreement these last many decades (which is Grey Fox's point).

For what it's worth the UK did not have vaccine manufacturing capacity at the start of the pandemic. The UK government supported an experimental manufacturer for the Oxford/AZ vaccine in February last year (so the research could work in the context of mass production) which is now the most productive site in the UK and have supported the establishment of numerous vaccine manufacturing sites in the UK (including fill and finish) for multiple companies (AZ, Valneva, Curevac). This was in part driven by concerns about the Trump administration restricting supplies of vaccines.

Now that may not be replicable because the UK does have a decent pharma sector (just not vaccine manufacturers) and it has a centre of vaccine research in Oxford. But it doesn't seem that longer term policy decisions meaning there was no vaccine manufacturing capacity in February 2020 necessarily means you have no capacity now.

I think in the long run most reasonable size countries are going to want some form of vaccine manufacturing capacity - especially because of the risk of new variants requiring booster shots.

Canada did something similar.  The problem is we backed the wrong (Chinese) horse.  When Canada tried to change to another vaccine producer, it had trouble finding someone who would licence it hear (other countries had already tied those rights up).  We do now have a licensing agreement but it will take some time to get the manufacturing facility for that product built.

There are valid criticisms to make.  Rather than pursuing a strategy that relied on the Chinese, at a time when the relationship was already very difficult, the government should have been pursuing another vaccine options to for development in Canada.  Also, regardless of the licencing problems the government out to have started construction with an eye to retooling to meet the specifications of a particular vaccine as and when necessary.

What makes the Conservative criticism hypocritical is the proper approach required the government owning and operating the facility. Something the Cons would never have done for ideological reasons.  They would have done exactly what the Liberals did - go out and purchase the vaccine on the open market.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Getting vaccinated tomorrow on the "old git" criterion. The NHS has a very simple online form (helpful if you know your NHS number) and you get to choose your vaccination centre and dates/times. second jab is in 11 weeks. Took about two minutes and both times and place are very convenient.

[Josquius]

Getting vaccinated tomorrow on the "old git" criterion. The NHS has a very simple online form (helpful if you know your NHS number) and you get to choose your vaccination centre and dates/times. second jab is in 11 weeks. Took about two minutes and both times and place are very convenient.

I didn't realise you were north of 65. But good news.

[Legbiter]

Getting vaccinated tomorrow on the "old git" criterion. The NHS has a very simple online form (helpful if you know your NHS number) and you get to choose your vaccination centre and dates/times. second jab is in 11 weeks. Took about two minutes and both times and place are very convenient.

At this rate about 1% of the UK is getting jabbed every day.

[The Larch]

A friend of mine who is younger than me but works as a teacher got the first vaccine dose yesterday, as teachers are starting to get vaccinated in my region.