Meanwhile in the Labour Party...

[Sheilbh]

This feels like the he's managed to find the worst of all worlds. Lifting the suspension has been criticised by Jewish Labour activists and doesn't satisfy the moderates, not returning the whip pisses off the left and Labour chaos/anti-semitism is a big story on the news again.

The factionalism and in-fighting that is in the political culture of the left (and this seems to happen globally) is crazy

[Tamas]

This feels like the he's managed to find the worst of all worlds. Lifting the suspension has been criticised by Jewish Labour activists and doesn't satisfy the moderates, not returning the whip pisses off the left and Labour chaos/anti-semitism is a big story on the news again.

The factionalism and in-fighting that is in the political culture of the left (and this seems to happen globally) is crazy

It's not like the Tories are any better, they just do it with knives in backrooms as opposed to by committees.

[Sheilbh]

It's not like the Tories are any better, they just do it with knives in backrooms as opposed to by committees.

The Tories are better at this because they don't do it in public.

If a leader is failing or going to cost the Tories an election they get rid of them (Thatcher, Iain Duncan Smith etc) - it's ruthless but it works because winning is what matters most. Labour publicly row (and the public hates divided parties) and will never get rid of a leader no matter how bad they're doing (Foot, Corbyn) - because winning your internal battle against the opposing Labour faction is what really matters. Every single left-wing campaign group I can think of (and there's been loads) has fallen apart because of infighting.

And I don't think it's just a UK thing - it took multiple inconclusive elections before PSOE and Podemos agreed to work together and just look at the endless fighst withing the Democrats. It's like everyone on the left basically thinks their views/faction would win if the other bits of the left would just get out their way. And Spain gives a useful example of how this wouldn't be any better if there was just a hard left and a centre left party - because PSOE and Podemos have loads of factional infighting too

[fromtia]

Corbyn did poorly in the 2019 election, despite doing a great job in 17 and should slope off quietly. Trying to make him blow up and disappear and all left wingers with him, forever, by banging loudly the drum of anti-semtism accusations might not be the best course.

The Grauniad describes the EHRC report as damning, Shielbh says it's a bit dry. If Corbyn is an anti-semite, it ought be obvious at this point to a casual examination of the available facts. I take it on the word of other posters that the core of what's in this report is that as leader of the party he failed to respond energetically to complaints of ant-semitism in the party. That's bad, but expelling him for saying that he's not an anti semite, and that this accusation has been levelled against him for political ends isn't really reasonable. Can you defend yourself against an accusation of anti semitism? Or , once it's said out loud are you then obliged to accept your fate?

It's a dispiriting display of Labour infighting. I think expelling Corbyn was a mistake. Moving on and sidelining him politically makes sense, especially as he's widely hated by press and pundits. Is he an anti-semite? maybe? Let's see the evidence. Did he fail in his duty as party leader to vigorously protect party members from bigotry of any stripe? Sounds like he done gone fucked up.

[garbon]

Corbyn did poorly in the 2019 election, despite doing a great job in 17 and should slope off quietly. Trying to make him blow up and disappear and all left wingers with him, forever, by banging loudly the drum of anti-semtism accusations might not be the best course.

The Grauniad describes the EHRC report as damning, Shielbh says it's a bit dry. If Corbyn is an anti-semite, it ought be obvious at this point to a casual examination of the available facts. I take it on the word of other posters that the core of what's in this report is that as leader of the party he failed to respond energetically to complaints of ant-semitism in the party. That's bad, but expelling him for saying that he's not an anti semite, and that this accusation has been levelled against him for political ends isn't really reasonable. Can you defend yourself against an accusation of anti semitism? Or , once it's said out loud are you then obliged to accept your fate?

It's a dispiriting display of Labour infighting. I think expelling Corbyn was a mistake. Moving on and sidelining him politically makes sense, especially as he's widely hated by press and pundits. Is he an anti-semite? maybe? Let's see the evidence. Did he fail in his duty as party leader to vigorously protect party members from bigotry of any stripe? Sounds like he done gone fucked up.

I don't see why it matters if he is in his heart an anti-semite or not. Kind of like how it doesn't matter if Trump is actually a racist or not.

[Sheilbh]

The Grauniad describes the EHRC report as damning, Shielbh says it's a bit dry. If Corbyn is an anti-semite, it ought be obvious at this point to a casual examination of the available facts. I take it on the word of other posters that the core of what's in this report is that as leader of the party he failed to respond energetically to complaints of ant-semitism in the party. That's bad, but expelling him for saying that he's not an anti semite, and that this accusation has been levelled against him for political ends isn't really reasonable. Can you defend yourself against an accusation of anti semitism? Or , once it's said out loud are you then obliged to accept your fate?

I think with institutional racism like this it is really difficult to defend yourself in the Corbyn sort of has. The core of the issue is a minority group saying they're experiencing discrimination and when they complain or try to do anything about it they are not treated equally. And it's core to this that the definition of what is or isn't discrimination is based on the people who are experiencing it, not the institution.

If your response to that is to say that it's being whipped out of proportion by the media as part of a smear campaign (especially when, as is the case with Jews, there is a rich history of racist tropes about that minority controlling the media), you're kind of proving the point. Because they complain about discrimination and that is not treated seriously because it is viewed as a media concoction/smear campaign. Now the motivation behind that may not be racist but from the experience of the person complaining that they've suffered discrimination but then sees the (former) leader on the news casting doubts on the severity or importance or widespreadness of the issue, that's exactly the issue - they complain and it's not treated the same.

To be honest it reminds me of US conservatives accusing people of race baiting for raising issues about race, or Cressida Dick saying the Met's issues with institutional racism are solved.

I think the reason he had the whip withdrawn was because the leadership had put out a statement saying they accepted the EHRC verdict, would work to fix the issue and that anyone who thought this was a smear campaign didn't belong in the Labour Party. Corbyn's statement just tested if they meant that.

It's a dispiriting display of Labour infighting. I think expelling Corbyn was a mistake. Moving on and sidelining him politically makes sense, especially as he's widely hated by press and pundits. Is he an anti-semite? maybe? Let's see the evidence. Did he fail in his duty as party leader to vigorously protect party members from bigotry of any stripe? Sounds like he done gone fucked up.

As I say I don't particularly care whether he is or isn't. But I give it 6 months to a year before he does something that raises the issue again - like the Black September memorial event, or the blood libel preacher he shared a stage with. Before he was leader Corbyn would fairly regularly speak at events with people that other pro-Palestinian activists refused to platform and I think he'll revert to that now he's not leader.

[fromtia]

I think with institutional racism like this it is really difficult to defend yourself in the Corbyn sort of has. The core of the issue is a minority group saying they're experiencing discrimination and when they complain or try to do anything about it they are not treated equally. And it's core to this that the definition of what is or isn't discrimination is based on the people who are experiencing it, not the institution.

If your response to that is to say that it's being whipped out of proportion by the media as part of a smear campaign (especially when, as is the case with Jews, there is a rich history of racist tropes about that minority controlling the media), you're kind of proving the point. Because they complain about discrimination and that is not treated seriously because it is viewed as a media concoction/smear campaign. Now the motivation behind that may not be racist but from the experience of the person complaining that they've suffered discrimination but then sees the (former) leader on the news casting doubts on the severity or importance or widespreadness of the issue, that's exactly the issue - they complain and it's not treated the same.

I don't really disagree. Do you think it's outrageous to suggest the anti semitism charges against Corbyn are in part politically motivated, or do you think they are completely apolitical and based solely in a rightful opposition to bigotry and anti-semitism?

As I say I don't particularly care whether he is or isn't. But I give it 6 months to a year before he does something that raises the issue again - like the Black September memorial event, or the blood libel preacher he shared a stage with. Before he was leader Corbyn would fairly regularly speak at events with people that other pro-Palestinian activists refused to platform and I think he'll revert to that now he's not leader.

Well, does Ben Shapiro accept Alex Jones interpretation of Sandy Hook because they both appear on Rogan? No, that would be a foolish thing to say. I dont think we should so willingly accept that if you share a platform with someone you share their views, that's always struck me as the thin end of the "cancel culture" wedge. If I had been accused of anti-semitism, or whatever bigotry, I would be extremely careful about who I appeared with speaking publicly. That being said you are sort of waving your hands about a bit again with the he's an anti semite thing.

[Gups]

Well, does Ben Shapiro accept Alex Jones interpretation of Sandy Hook because they both appear on Rogan? No, that would be a foolish thing to say. I dont think we should so willingly accept that if you share a platform with someone you share their views, that's always struck me as the thin end of the "cancel culture" wedge. If I had been accused of anti-semitism, or whatever bigotry, I would be extremely careful about who I appeared with speaking publicly. That being said you are sort of waving your hands about a bit again with the he's an anti semite thing.

That's a reasonable position in most cases but Corbyn is a man who is extremely careful about who he shares a platform with. During the EU referndum campaign he refused to share a platform with Blair or Brown amongst others.

[fromtia]

That's a reasonable position in most cases but Corbyn is a man who is extremely careful about who he shares a platform with. During the EU referndum campaign he refused to share a platform with Blair or Brown amongst others.

If he purposefully refuses to appear in public with Brown or Blair for whatever reason, but happily appears alongside someone who says ridiculous things about jews then I would consider that really crap on his part.

[Sheilbh]

I don't really disagree. Do you think it's outrageous to suggest the anti semitism charges against Corbyn are in part politically motivated, or do you think they are completely apolitical and based solely in a rightful opposition to bigotry and anti-semitism?

The Jewish press and Jewish organisations complained about Corbyn when he was a backbench MP. They continued to raise issues through 2015-17. And there were issues starting to simmer (sadly a number of issues in Merseyside) - so Jewish MPs were starting to receive more abuse and when they raised the issue of the abuse they received, they just got more. And this particularly targeted women MPs and was really nasty - death threat, rape threats etc. At that time Corbyn I think failed as a leader because most of those MPs were also on the right of the party and I think he viewed it purely in factional terms. Famously one MP who received numerous death and rape threats asked for a meeting with the leadership and never heard back.

But I think after 2017 it escalated - for two big reasons. There is a minority of anti-semites in the Labour Party, in factional terms they're normally on the same side as the left - and I think the left turned a bit of a blind eye to this presence. And there's always been something quite aggressive and laddish about the Labour left and the new media operation around it - and I think all of them felt vindicated and doubled down. I remember watching the 2017 results in a lock-in and generally having a great time, but there were a really aggressive group of Corbynish supporters, you know, chanting "salt the slug" whenever there was a moderate Labour MP on the TV. Sometimes it wasn't a very nice atmosphere because I think if you're not a straight, white man you're maybe a little more aware of how that atmosphere can turn quickly - and I imagine there was something similar going on for Jewish Labour members who would raise this issue at their party meetings and it would be interpreted as an attack on Corbyn/the left faction.

The other thing is I think the mainstream press took more interest. Some of that was probably not well-motivated - I struggle to take the Sun seriously as an anti-racist paper. But some of it probably reflects the fact that the complaints by Jewish activists and MPs were getting louder and louder, the Chief Rabbi and Board of Deputies (both supported by the UK's leading anti-Islamophobia campaign) made statements. If reports in the Jewish press didn't have any impact then you need to make it go national - and there was a story.

Plus all the stuff from Corbyn's past - that the Jewish press had covered - got reported by the national media which was previously stuff many Jews had known about, but wasn't in the mainstream consciousness.

As I say the "English irony" comment is the one I find most objectionable. I just can't get to a non-racist meaning of "Zionists" even if they've lived here for a long time or their whole lives not understanding "English irony". It just seems like bog-standard "they're not really one of us" racism. but even the mural thing back in 2012, where an artist painted this mural and posted a photo saying that it was  going to be painted over by the council:

And Corbyn commented: "Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller [sic] destroyed Diego Viera's [sic] mural because it includes a picture of Lenin." Either he just cannot recognise an obviously anti-semitic piece of art in front of him (it made me think of the Father Ted Nazi priest episode), or he agrees with his content. Neither option is great for a leader of the opposition.

Well, does Ben Shapiro accept Alex Jones interpretation of Sandy Hook because they both appear on Rogan? No, that would be a foolish thing to say. I dont think we should so willingly accept that if you share a platform with someone you share their views, that's always struck me as the thin end of the "cancel culture" wedge. If I had been accused of anti-semitism, or whatever bigotry, I would be extremely careful about who I appeared with speaking publicly. That being said you are sort of waving your hands about a bit again with the he's an anti semite thing.

But those aren't quite the same. If Ben Shapiro agreed to do a panel event with Alex Jones, then I'd have issues with that. It is the thin end of cancel culture - but the example I was thinking (I've forgotten the guys name) is someone who has written extensively on why the Holocaust is a hoax. He is also very pro-Palestinian, most pro-Palestinian activists and groups in the UK want nothing to do with him, but Corbyn would still do events with him.  You know I think if we had a Monday Club style Tory MP who kept on doing events with a Holocaust denier, or making comments about a group born in the UK not getting "English irony" we'd all know what to think of that MP. I don't really see the difference with Corbyn.

If you're an MP (especially if you're later leader of the opposition) I think you have to be careful who you host at events or share a stage with because you're not just a rando Twitter egg anymore

[fromtia]

It's always a delight to read your posts Shielbh , thorough and thought provoking. It makes me feel a little bit self conscious about my own penchant for writing  irreverent telegrams.

The painting is obviously tedious and anti semitic I agree, poor judgement of Corbyn to defend it, or compare it to Rivieras work. Let the artist paint and draw whatever they please but if it's public art, then let the local council cover over hateful garbage.

Part of my questioning these accusations against Corbyn is bassed on my sympathy, in broad terms for his policy agenda. I am always sympathetic to an actual alternative to the neo liberal status quo, a return to the trente gloriueses, although I understand it's unlikely. Corbyn , from the outset seemed to be on the receiving end of an artillery barrage of negative press, absolutely hated in exquisite detail by all who commentated. He certainly had many shortcomings and seemed perpetually out of his depth on the national stage, but I feel bound to at least ask some rudimentary questions before accepting a truly alarming accusation as a truth.

[Sheilbh]

It's always a delight to read your posts Shielbh , thorough and thought provoking. It makes me feel a little bit self conscious about my own penchant for writing  irreverent telegrams.

The painting is obviously tedious and anti semitic I agree, poor judgement of Corbyn to defend it, or compare it to Rivieras work. Let the artist paint and draw whatever they please but if it's public art, then let the local council cover over hateful garbage.

Part of my questioning these accusations against Corbyn is bassed on my sympathy, in broad terms for his policy agenda. I am always sympathetic to an actual alternative to the neo liberal status quo, a return to the trente gloriueses, although I understand it's unlikely. Corbyn , from the outset seemed to be on the receiving end of an artillery barrage of negative press, absolutely hated in exquisite detail by all who commentated. He certainly had many shortcomings and seemed perpetually out of his depth on the national stage, but I feel bound to at least ask some rudimentary questions before accepting a truly alarming accusation as a truth.

That's very kind.

To be honest I was always disappointed it was Corbyn because he is to me the most lightweight of the Labour left. I can't think of a single domestic policy issue he's ever focused on in his 30 year career - he was always the "foreign minister of the left" so while John McDonnell was thinking about how to change the UK economic system and Diane Abbott was thinking about policing issues, Corbyn was going to Cuba Solidarity Campaign events. I think there was something to the "magic grandpa" criticism that he was basically like a nice-ish, probably well-meaning, left-wing vicar and his supporters were particularly engaged by him/his personality and judged people based on their proximity to him. They were fans - a bit like Trump has fans.

I think John McDonnell or Diane Abbott are far more interesting, policy-focused and would have been far better leaders and advanced the left more. I'm not sure where the good ideas on the Labour left will come from - I still have hopes for Angela Rayner. So much of the UK left is just insanely nostalgic and conservative for some imagined post-war idyll. I blame Tony Benn - people talk about the influence WW2 has on UK politics and I think it's nowhere bigger than on the left: big, centralised public services run by a powerful ministry in London and Benn's obsession a sort of planning that is basically just the war economy. It just doesn't seem to engage with the world we live in. The US and European left seem far more engaged and coming up with far more interesting ideas.

And I think people will look back on Corbyn's leadership and the big issues will be anti-semitism, vacillating on Brexit and failing to win two elections leading to Boris Johnson, Prime Minister

[Admiral Yi]

Are those dudes in the mural well known historical Jews or generic Jewish bankers?

[fromtia]

Are those dudes in the mural well known historical Jews or generic Jewish bankers?

They are clearly the Jewish Monopoly Club of Stoke Newington having a final showdown on a Sunday night. Also controlling the world .

[Admiral Yi]

They are clearly the Jewish Monopoly Club of Stoke Newington having a final showdown on a Sunday night. Also controlling the world .

Well they should find a different table to play on!