US abandoning Kurds in Syria

[Admiral Yi]

Unfortunately I think it can only get worse, but maybe there is another level to be reached in the "so bad it's good" category.

That's the joke.

Every public comment he's made since the Ukraine whistleblower have been in ascending retardation.

[mongers]

Apparently the EU was going to issue a warning to Turkey over their attack on Kurdish positions in Syria but Hungary has vetoed it.

Today just keeps getting better and better for Vladimir. 

[The Minsky Moment]

Destroying ISIS, of course.

In the last five years the SDF has lost around 11,000 men and women in the fight against ISIS. The US has lost 11.

Seems like it was a pretty fucking good deal we made.

Right.  I'm not following chip's argument.  There were 3 options:
1) Use US ground troops to confront ISIS directly
2) Rely on proxies and allies to fight ISIS for us
3) Let the ISIS caliphate expand.

The Kurds were the most effective proxy we had. By far.

The next argument is that they have outlived their usefulness and thus can be profitably betrayed.  The moral and consequential arguments against that are pretty obvious and don't need repeating. There are also the practical counter-arguments: (a) the Kurds may still be quite useful in the future as an effective combatant force in a dangerous and unpredictable region and (b) we gained nothing of value from the betrayal.

It's a truly Trumpian masterstroke of tarnishing the US reputation and getting nothing for it.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'm sympathetic to his main point, that the US shouldn't be there. But we are, we shouldn't leave allies in the lurch. We can't just change foreign policy at the President's whim.

If we reverse the policy and help the Kurds, when will it end?

When the United States either collapses or ceases to be a great power.  So most likely some point in the distant future. Or 2-3 years if Trump is re-elected.

[chipwich]

Is forever war against a country that hasn't attacked the United States the best you can offer?

[Habbaku]

Is forever war against a country that hasn't attacked the United States the best you can offer?

ISIS isn't a country.

[chipwich]

Syria is. Assad didn't ask us to have soldiers their assisting the Kurds. Did you forget that we invaded his sovereign nation?

[Habbaku]

Failed states in the midst of civil wars and incapable of policing death cults with the power that ISIS had/has don't get to decide whether or not they can reject good actors from intervening within their borders. I think that's a pretty reasonable rule.

[Valmy]

I'm sympathetic to his main point, that the US shouldn't be there. But we are, we shouldn't leave allies in the lurch. We can't just change foreign policy at the President's whim.

Yeah I mean I get that position. But again we are going to be right back in the Middle East soon. This just weakens our position, and more importantly backstabs our friends who just made sacrifices on our behalf.

Syria is. Assad didn't ask us to have soldiers their assisting the Kurds. Did you forget that we invaded his sovereign nation?

Well so is Turkey. In any case it was territory he no longer controlled to defeat another force that was opposed to his government occupying his territory.

But that is neither here nor there. Even to the extent you are correct here that doesn't mean abandoning the Kurds is a good thing to do.

Is forever war against a country that hasn't attacked the United States the best you can offer?

No...I am pretty sure there were other options besides that.

Besides it was not like we have really done much to war with the Assad government.

[Valmy]

Canada should go rescue the Kurds then. Since Canada has so much confidence from the rest of the world. Go be the world police this time.

Ok chipwich I get you are not happy with what has already happened. I was a big voice to not intervene in Syria, but it does not mean we have a magical time machine to go back to 2011 and do it over again. Taking action that encourages Turkey to invade Syria and massacre a people who just allied with us to defeat ISIS is a disgraceful act. Just because you wish things had gone differently back in 2011 does not mean that we can pretend that is what happened.

[Valmy]

Republicans in open revolt in the Senate, introducing bipartisan legislation placing heavy sanctions on Turkey when they come back from recess.

Donald singlehandedly destroying two alliances in a sensitive geopolitical region. Nice.

Yeah this will effectively end our alliance with Turkey. It was getting to be difficult with Erdogan anyway. But still...regrettable.

[Habbaku]

Fuck Turkey. I just hope that this fractures the GOP bootlickers from Trump in a real way.

[chipwich]

Are you two referring to some sort of international convention or diplomatic precedent? This isn't a Total War game where you can ninja a province that temporarily got taken over by rebels. The US has more or less normalized relations with Assad's Syria and we don't have anymore right to move troops into there than we did in Iraq.

You could argue that since Assad negligently allowed ISIS to attack America's allies then it is grounds for war, but has never been a policy of Trump or Obama.

There are 195 countries. The United States does not have a burden to protect the Kurds more than any of them.

[Eddie Teach]

I was a big voice to not intervene in Syria,

I don't think screaming at the computer makes you a "big voice" 

[Valmy]

Are you two referring to some sort of international convention or diplomatic precedent? This isn't a Total War game where you can ninja a province that temporarily got taken over by rebels.

Yes this is not some kind of video game where everything operates under strict rules of a game. This is the messy business of actual politics, you seem to be under the impression that everything is this rigid black and white scenario. And anyway the United States has zero interest in "ninjaing" anything.

The US has more or less normalized relations with Assad's Syria and we don't have anymore right to move troops into there than we did in Iraq.

I don't necessarily disagree, I don't think we should have been there, but this is not in reference to the current situation. Does Turkey have a right to move troops into Syria? If our actions lead to a foreign army invading Syria and killing its citizens, is that also maybe not the right thing to do? Or maybe it is. I don't know what your strict code is and if it applies to Turkey.

You could argue that since Assad negligently allowed ISIS to attack America's allies then it is grounds for war, but has never been a policy of Trump or Obama.

We are not at war with Syria, nor do I think Syria wants there to be a war with the United States. I think they would have vastly preferred what actually happened instead of that.

There are 195 countries. The United States does not have a burden to protect the Kurds more than any of them.

Well I disagree that we do not have a burden to not abandon the Kurds. They allied with us and agreed to work with us to defeat ISIS at considerable cost to themselves. Now maybe we shouldn't have done that, maybe we had no right to do that, but we did do that and with that comes certain obligations. However it is just a fact that we considered defeating ISIS of strategic importance, even if you do not think it should have been.

Also this will create a rift between the United States and Turkey. Since you have this personal opinion on American strategic interests that do not seem to correspond to what our government and military think I guess I will leave that up to your interpretation if that is of strategic concern.