Trump's True Politics

[Barrister]

And certainly in no case is this so universally common held opinions that Donald Trump represents the radical voice being opposed to them.

DJT makes up a whole lot of shit.  But he doesn't have to stretch very far on these points.

Personally, I'm of the view that Democrats should stop talking about policy positions that make it so easy for DJT to mischaracterize in this fashion.  You know, maybe talk once in a while about the need to stop illegal immigration (while wholeheartedly supporting legal immigration).  But nobody appears to be looking for my advice...

[Zoupa]

And certainly in no case is this so universally common held opinions that Donald Trump represents the radical voice being opposed to them.

DJT makes up a whole lot of shit.  But he doesn't have to stretch very far on these points.

Personally, I'm of the view that Democrats should stop talking about policy positions that make it so easy for DJT to mischaracterize in this fashion.  You know, maybe talk once in a while about the need to stop illegal immigration (while wholeheartedly supporting legal immigration).  But nobody appears to be looking for my advice...

Democrats don't need to pander to Trump voters. It doesn't work. People need to realize on their own that he's the worst choice. If they don't, they don't.

Those Dem senators and congressmen that tried to veer to the right all lost anyway. Except for Manchin, but he's an asshole and is going to lose the next one if he runs anyways. So fuck him.

[Barrister]

And certainly in no case is this so universally common held opinions that Donald Trump represents the radical voice being opposed to them.

DJT makes up a whole lot of shit.  But he doesn't have to stretch very far on these points.

Personally, I'm of the view that Democrats should stop talking about policy positions that make it so easy for DJT to mischaracterize in this fashion.  You know, maybe talk once in a while about the need to stop illegal immigration (while wholeheartedly supporting legal immigration).  But nobody appears to be looking for my advice...

Democrats don't need to pander to Trump voters. It doesn't work. People need to realize on their own that he's the worst choice. If they don't, they don't.

Those Dem senators and congressmen that tried to veer to the right all lost anyway. Except for Manchin, but he's an asshole and is going to lose the next one if he runs anyways. So fuck him.

That's actually pretty wrong.

The Dems won in 2018 by running a lot of moderate candidates in "purple" districts.

"People need to realize on their own that he's the worst choice. If they don't, they don't." sounds like a recipe for a second Trump term.

[Legbiter]

The Dems won in 2018 by running a lot of moderate candidates in "purple" districts.

Yeah, the Democrats flipped large areas of the midwest and the Rust Belt in 2018 where Trump dominated in 2016.

Trump is vulnerable, the hard part for the Dems is to nominate a candidate that could win Ohio and, say, Pennsylvania.

[Josquius]

I've heard however that it wasn't trumps right wing credentials that won it for him in many places, rather it was his radical populist credentials. Which can of course come from either extreme.

[The Minsky Moment]

If both parties get the same votes in the same places, Trump will win again - that's a truism.  The Democrats can hope for higher turnout but they would be well advised to try to get some Trump voters to switch. Even 1% would make a big difference.

[Oexmelin]

The difference of appreciation seems to be whether bolder leftist policies will attract some of these Trump voters or whether some more centrist policies will attract these Trump voters.

My sense is this: the people who were liable to vote for Trump to stick it to the establishment are not those mythical reasonable conservatives... They are, for better or for worse, people who are more susceptible to a discourse of anger than a discourse of reasonableness. If anger, and desire for change is left to the sole Republicans, and is allowed to become part of Republican identity, the Democrats may still win this election, but the causes of Trumpism will go unaddressed.

The conundrum of the Democratic Party is that many of these bolder policies are driven by the more progressive part of the party, and its racial politics are at odds with some white resentment that does drive some of this anger.

[dps]

In any case I have made it pretty clear that my opinion is that the current immigration laws fail because they are completely and hopelessly out of touch with the economic realities of labor needs. Our economy is dependent on these people, ergo why enforcement will usually fail. I would like to see some reasonable reform a la what GWB tried. But I was under the impression with collapsing birth rates all over Latin America this problem was solving itself. So excuse me if I am not freaking out about it like apparently I should be doing for some reason. It is not even in my top 10 issues. But in any case those suggestions seem like administrative reforms and reversing the human rights violations of the current Presidency not just throwing the borders open to everything and everybody. So just a tad misleading.

I still reject the idea that our economy is dependent on immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  OTOH, I do support the idea of changing our immigration laws to allow it to be easier to come to the US legally, not on utilitarian grounds but on the grounds that it's the right thing to do.

[garbon]

In any case I have made it pretty clear that my opinion is that the current immigration laws fail because they are completely and hopelessly out of touch with the economic realities of labor needs. Our economy is dependent on these people, ergo why enforcement will usually fail. I would like to see some reasonable reform a la what GWB tried. But I was under the impression with collapsing birth rates all over Latin America this problem was solving itself. So excuse me if I am not freaking out about it like apparently I should be doing for some reason. It is not even in my top 10 issues. But in any case those suggestions seem like administrative reforms and reversing the human rights violations of the current Presidency not just throwing the borders open to everything and everybody. So just a tad misleading.

I still reject the idea that our economy is dependent on immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  OTOH, I do support the idea of changing our immigration laws to allow it to be easier to come to the US legally, not on utilitarian grounds but on the grounds that it's the right thing to do.

OK ?

[Legbiter]

My sense is this: the people who were liable to vote for Trump to stick it to the establishment are not those mythical reasonable conservatives... They are, for better or for worse, people who are more susceptible to a discourse of anger than a discourse of reasonableness. If anger, and desire for change is left to the sole Republicans, and is allowed to become part of Republican identity, the Democrats may still win this election, but the causes of Trumpism will go unaddressed.

The optics of the seemingly viable Dem progressive candidates next to Trump is what worries me. Imagine Pocahontas or Bernie side by side with Trump on a debate stage. Trump will be the moderate next to wizened socialist Bernie and uncharismatic wonkish Warren. Biden is the leftovers from the mid-90's political consensus most of us here came of age to and it has thoroughly run out of juice. Plus, he's aged badly and keeps having these repeated cognitive malfunctions.

As to why Trump got elected, the current paradigm is roadkill from both the left and the right, it was great for the investment and salary classes but immiserated millions of wage earners in the West who in the wake of the 2008 crash were in a justifiably foul mood.

[The Minsky Moment]

As to why Trump got elected, the current paradigm is roadkill from both the left and the right, it was great for the investment and salary classes but immiserated millions of wage earners in the West who in the wake of the 2008 crash were in a justifiably foul mood.

Trump's economic policy has been to slash working class access to health care, gut what little is left of labor protections in the US, and tilt the tax code even further (and massively) in favor of the super-rich. He is the "90s paradigm" taken to the ultimate extreme with the exception that he has a penchant for starting and losing trade wars.

Either wage earners voting Trump are fools or they are supporting him for reasons other than the pocketbook.

[FunkMonk]

You can only lie to people so much before they start to get wise to your act.

My main hope for the election next year is that a sizeable number of nominal Trump voters, who say in polls that they approve of the President, don't feel energized to vote and stay home next November because Donald screwed them over one too many times.

I'm looking at you, farmers of America.

[Valmy]

The Farmers have gotten completely and utterly fucked by Trump.

Which is ironic since I remember all the people saying the rural areas were voting Trump because everybody else had abandoned them economically...which wasn't true. But if it was then Trump has certainly not helped the situation, quite the opposite.

However having spent time in rural areas the chances the farmers make Trump pay for fucking them is slim to none.

[Valmy]

I still reject the idea that our economy is dependent on immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  OTOH, I do support the idea of changing our immigration laws to allow it to be easier to come to the US legally, not on utilitarian grounds but on the grounds that it's the right thing to do.

Well it might be true that if we could somehow eliminate all immigration the economy would not collapse. But there would be lots of losers in such an arrangement, particularly in the border states. Those economic interests are what keeps illegal immigration going.

But, in any case, sometimes people can come to the same place from different directions

[crazy canuck]

In any case I have made it pretty clear that my opinion is that the current immigration laws fail because they are completely and hopelessly out of touch with the economic realities of labor needs. Our economy is dependent on these people, ergo why enforcement will usually fail. I would like to see some reasonable reform a la what GWB tried. But I was under the impression with collapsing birth rates all over Latin America this problem was solving itself. So excuse me if I am not freaking out about it like apparently I should be doing for some reason. It is not even in my top 10 issues. But in any case those suggestions seem like administrative reforms and reversing the human rights violations of the current Presidency not just throwing the borders open to everything and everybody. So just a tad misleading.

I still reject the idea that our economy is dependent on immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  OTOH, I do support the idea of changing our immigration laws to allow it to be easier to come to the US legally, not on utilitarian grounds but on the grounds that it's the right thing to do.

Its kind of like rejecting the idea of gravity before stepping off a tall building.  If population growth declines or the US experiences population decreases, what happens to economic growth?