Trump's True Politics

[Habbaku]

Yeah, I want to make it very clear that I don't buy that scenario in the least. Was just providing an alternative that could have been intended.

[Eddie Teach]

You're right, it's better to perpetually expand until we literally run out of resources.

[grumbler]

You're right, it's better to perpetually expand until we literally run out of resources.

Economic expansion does not necessarily mean increased use of limited resources.  I suppose we could expand until we have used every erg of energy put out by the sun, but not in the near term.

[Habbaku]

Significant amounts of economic expansion have been concerned with using fewer resources to do the same job. But nice strawman.

[Valmy]

In any case I have made it pretty clear that my opinion is that the current immigration laws fail because they are completely and hopelessly out of touch with the economic realities of labor needs. Our economy is dependent on these people, ergo why enforcement will usually fail.

My understanding was that illegals use far more in public benefits than they pay in taxes. That this burden largely doesn't fall on their employers doesn't change that this is a burden.

Presuming this is true, then having some kind of reform guest worker program to properly tax and monitor their public service usage might be something worth trying instead of continually trying the same failed tactics only more so.

[Valmy]

Here in California, undocumented workers pay taxes.  They also pay to get a driver's license, etc.  Since they are such an important part of the state's economy, and recent trends has moved to better pay for agricultural workers, California makes sure they pay their share.  Seems to work.

If this was in response to me, I know all that. They're still a significant net burden, especially the large and growing proportion of them who don't work.

Now wait a second. How can you know their labor trends?

[garbon]

Here in California, undocumented workers pay taxes.  They also pay to get a driver's license, etc.  Since they are such an important part of the state's economy, and recent trends has moved to better pay for agricultural workers, California makes sure they pay their share.  Seems to work.

If this was in response to me, I know all that. They're still a significant net burden, especially the large and growing proportion of them who don't work.

Now wait a second. How can you know their labor trends?

He be talking out his ass again?

[Eddie Teach]

Alternatively, the same way PDH knows them(probably having read it somewhere).

[Valmy]

PDH just said some basic policy initiatives, AD was acting like he had a large amount of very specific trends and claims so he had my attention.

[PDH]

Alternatively, the same way PDH knows them(probably having read it somewhere).

I know it because it is the law here.  Undocumented workers are needed for the agricultural sector most importantly, and this has been recognized for decades.  Coordinated action by workers and support from the state government has increased wages over time.  Workers are required to pay taxes, even agricultural workers, the state has become quite good at checking this and employers do not want to face large fines for doing things off the books.

The end result has helped the state.  There are the other problems California faces, obviously, but the addition of such workers into the tax base has helped over time.  California does run a surplus, and it seems in the best interest to continue such policies as agriculture is such a key part of the equation.

I do not know where the "large and growing proportion who do not work" comes from, that sounds like anecdotal pulling out scare phrases - the biggest issue is that after the first generation, the children of the workers are no longer in agriculture, but instead college trained and working in the larger economy.

[Ancient Demon]

Now wait a second. How can you know their labor trends?

Hold on, let me consult my crystal ball...

Illegals used to be disproportionately young men, now more of them are women with children. It's also easier for them to receive government benefits.

[grumbler]

Now wait a second. How can you know their labor trends?

Hold on, let me consult my crystal ball pull something out of my ass...

Illegals used to be disproportionately young men, now more of them are women with children. It's also easier for them to receive government benefits.

FTFY.  Really, you are going to have to try harder with your trolls.

[Valmy]

Now wait a second. How can you know their labor trends?

Hold on, let me consult my crystal ball...

I am glad we have a clairvoyant on our board.

Illegals used to be disproportionately young men, now more of them are women with children. It's also easier for them to receive government benefits.

Like what? Food stamps and public school? I mean it is not like there are just a ton of great benefits they, or anybody really, can get. Also when you say they are a net burden you are talking only about taxes and not overall economic value I presume. But also schools are paid for with property taxes, which they might pay indirectly through rents so those might not show up.

I mean presuming we can accurately track that sort of thing. By definition these people are undocumented.

[Eddie Teach]

FWIW, there are a lot of contradictory stories out there about how much illegals contribute vs how much they utilize government services. AD didn't come up with that.

[Valmy]

FWIW, there are a lot of contradictory stories out there about how much illegals contribute vs how much they utilize government services. AD didn't come up with that.

I did not say he did. I was just curious since he seemed so confident about something I am not that confident about.