How Democracy Dies

[crazy canuck]

What's the solution? Tell them Trumpesque lies about how lovely everything will be for them if the Dems are in power?

That is certainly a start, but hardly the end.

It is politics. It is the art of convincing people who can be convinced.

I know just writing off those who disagree with you as racist morons is emotionally satisfying. But it is both untrue and not terribly useful.

According to the NYTimes article you posted a large number of Trump supporters are in fact racist morons.  The other bulk of his white voters, according to the article are evangelical Christians who are not racist themselves but who are perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to the racism so long as their own policy objectives are achieved.  Those groups, according to the article are write offs for the Democrats.  No point in the Democrats lowering themselves to attract anyone from those groups - they would lose their own supporters if they did that.

The article unhelpfully ends with the observation that there are 7% of undecided voters up for grabs that need to be convinced but I didn't see an analysis of the characteristics of that 7%.

[Razgovory]

I know, it's very Anglo-Saxon of me not to want to persecute people for their language, race, or religion, but I guess I was just raised wrong.

The delusion is strong in this one.

I am sure the Irish can confirm about this "Anglo-Saxon" (whatever that means) inclination. 

PS: bienvenue à la maison (des fous ?) Sheilb !

It's based on something Viper said a few months to me.

Cause I looked at his cartoons.  You did post a link to them.

yes, but what makes you think he support the PQ or that he is a strong nationalist, in the negative aspect you confer to the word, like most anglo-saxons?  Specifically, how many of his drawings (around 200 per year) are pro-PQ, or nationist in that negative sense you confer?  And what more, what has it to do with that supposed conspiracy theory that he delibaretly applied a Free Mason symbol on the arm of his Alabama cave man to awoke the anti Free Mason conspiracies in his generally nationalist audience?

I will admit, I got confused by the political party, the cartoonist in question was a Right-wing Nationalist.

My "Anglo-Saxon" heritage apparently not to appreciate the "funny pictures" that Viper was so found of.





Damn those evil Jews! 

I don't tolerate the nationalism bullshit in America, why should I tolerate it come from Quebec?

[Duque de Bragança]

Raz n'est pas très Charlie, qui l'eût cru ?

Not only religious Jews on the first cartoon, and it's the retarded, sexist religious prescriptions which are mocked, so fair game pas par une femme !, it applies implicitly to devout muslims or fundamentalist christians (in short supply in Europe) as well. There's also a jab at PC e.g accommodements raisonnables. This requires some foreign language skills which obviously are not an inclination for "Anglo-Saxon" people like Raz.
Given Raz's long history of cyber-bigotry against Francophones, this is not surprising.

OTOH, arguing with a self-confessed nutcase...

[viper37]

I know, it's very Anglo-Saxon of me not to want to persecute people for their language, race, or religion, but I guess I was just raised wrong.

The delusion is strong in this one.

I am sure the Irish can confirm about this "Anglo-Saxon" (whatever that means) inclination. 

PS: bienvenue à la maison (des fous ?) Sheilb !

It's based on something Viper said a few months to me.

Cause I looked at his cartoons.  You did post a link to them.

yes, but what makes you think he support the PQ or that he is a strong nationalist, in the negative aspect you confer to the word, like most anglo-saxons?  Specifically, how many of his drawings (around 200 per year) are pro-PQ, or nationist in that negative sense you confer?  And what more, what has it to do with that supposed conspiracy theory that he delibaretly applied a Free Mason symbol on the arm of his Alabama cave man to awoke the anti Free Mason conspiracies in his generally nationalist audience?

I will admit, I got confused by the political party, the cartoonist in question was a Right-wing Nationalist.

My "Anglo-Saxon" heritage apparently not to appreciate the "funny pictures" that Viper was so found of.





Damn those evil Jews! 

I don't tolerate the nationalism bullshit in America, why should I tolerate it come from Quebec?

You do not understand the context, nor the drawing, yet you insist on drawing ridiculous conclusions...

The frist cartoon mocks the PQ and their supporters, as well as the fundamentalists against it.It also mocks the then Premier, Pauline Marois, and her overinflated ego.
Even without understanding the text, you can see that positioning a political leader as some kind of Liberty Statue signifies a greater than normal ego.
The punk representation of a Quebecer speaking a garbled French that Google Translate would never recognize is also a dead giveaway.


The second drawing references an incident were integrist Jews asked a gym to cover its windows so that their "young males" would not be provoked by the ladies in training.

But by your mindset, religious freedom must prevail, so hey, let's cover our women and block our windows so that we do not infringe on extremist religious practices all around us.

Might as well remove girls from schools since that is clearly offensive to many religious groups.

Should we also ban abortion?  Ban people of colour from voting since they're descendants of Cain?  Or should we contend ourselves from simply legalizing discrimination, like, allowing a doctor or a nurse to not provide a medical treatment because it is against their own religion?  Should we allow a private corporation to not cover abortion as part of their insurance plan? 

Basically, you want us to be as tolerant as Alabama so that we do not infringe on religious freedom.  I'd say deal with your own sillyness, but you seem to enjoy that, so keep at it

[Razgovory]

Raz n'est pas très Charlie, qui l'eût cru ?

Not only religious Jews on the first cartoon, and it's the retarded, sexist religious prescriptions which are mocked, so fair game pas par une femme !, it applies implicitly to devout muslims or fundamentalist christians (in short supply in Europe) as well. There's also a jab at PC e.g accommodements raisonnables. This requires some foreign language skills which obviously are not an inclination for "Anglo-Saxon" people like Raz.
Given Raz's long history of cyber-bigotry against Francophones, this is not surprising.

OTOH, arguing with a self-confessed nutcase...

What danger are Muslims and Jews to Quebec's identity?  I have a problem with Nationalism.  It just so happens that many Francophones are Nationalist.  I don't know why that is so.  If it was an American cartoon I'd respond the same way.  "Anglo-Saxon" was Viper's term.  I think it means someone who does not fully appreciate the civilizing foot on the neck of a someone different than you.  My ancestor's were German by the way.

[Eddie Teach]

I'm going to tentatively side with the Frenchies here. I can't read the captions and don't think the drawings by themselves are proof of racism.

[Malthus]

Here's a somewhat more nuanced article about the Jewish experience in Quebec in historical perspective:

https://vigile.quebec/articles/quebec-anti-semitism-and-anti-semitism-in-quebec

On two specific "edgy" editorial cartoons specifically:

Do such cartoons cross a line, and could they be in any sense considered anti-Semitic? They appear instead to be hard-hitting, fair comment and not anti-Semitic in any real sense. At the same time, it seems highly unlikely that such cartoons, and certainly the one with Reid depicted as a Hasid, would appear in English papers in Canada or the United States. Many Jews would indeed find such cartoons offensive. A delegation of the Montreal Jewish community met privately with the editors of one of the papers to discuss the matter, and received a fair and responsive hearing.

In short - there exists a wider degree of tolerance for using Jewish images in editorial cartoons in Quebec, which isn't per se anti-Semitic, but may easily appear as such to those used to the situation in English North America, which has less tolerance for such imagery. Consider for example a cartoon showing a politician who supported some cause relevant to the Black community in "blackface"; the cartoon would be perfectly legitimate (a cartoonist is allowed to comment on a politician supporting a specific policy) but using "blackface" would be bound to cause offence nonetheless. The use of Jewish images has a similar power, due to unfortunate 20th century events.

The actual situation in Quebec is complex - the Jewish population is more isolated from the Quebequois population than (say) the Jewish population in English Canada is from non-Jews, leading to more tensions, as Jews get lumped in with Anglos; "money and the ethnic vote" is the relevant quote here. Plus, immigration from North Africa has had a bigger impact in Quebec, adding another source to the mix.

The article is somewhat old (it refers to Bush as president!). More recent events are somewhat alarming in this regard:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/anti-semitic-incidents-in-quebec-increased-by-50-in-2018-audit-shows

Anti-Semitism as measured by "incidents" is up everywhere in Canada (on average, by 16%) but is up by nearly 50% in Quebec, which has significantly more such incidents than Ontario despite having less Jews.

[viper37]

Raz n'est pas très Charlie, qui l'eût cru ?

Not only religious Jews on the first cartoon, and it's the retarded, sexist religious prescriptions which are mocked, so fair game pas par une femme !, it applies implicitly to devout muslims or fundamentalist christians (in short supply in Europe) as well. There's also a jab at PC e.g accommodements raisonnables. This requires some foreign language skills which obviously are not an inclination for "Anglo-Saxon" people like Raz.
Given Raz's long history of cyber-bigotry against Francophones, this is not surprising.

OTOH, arguing with a self-confessed nutcase...

What danger are Muslims and Jews to Quebec's identity?

You're the only one saying they are.  No, not true.  There are people from various far right movements who also say the same.  And some from the far left too, but less so than it used to be.

I have a problem with Nationalism.

Like most anglo-saxons, in the cultural sense.

Yet, are you not proud to be American?  Do you not resent any pride at all at where your country is now compared to how it began?

It just so happens that many Francophones are Nationalist.

Yes.  Apparently, that is a crime to you.

I don't know why that is so.

Read on.

If it was an American cartoon I'd respond the same way.

Unlikely.

"Anglo-Saxon" was Viper's term.  I think it means someone who does not fully appreciate the civilizing foot on the neck of a someone different than you. 

It means someone living in English speaking country, more aptly, someone from the US, UK or a former colony.

My ancestor's were German by the way.

Glad for you.  Mine were French.  How does that change anything?

[viper37]

Anti-Semitism as measured by "incidents" is up everywhere in Canada (on average, by 16%) but is up by nearly 50% in Quebec, which has significantly more such incidents than Ontario despite having less Jews.

B'nai Brith proposes an eight-point plan to tackle anti-Semitism, which includes establishing dedicated hate crime units in every major city, holding universities accountable for campus anti-Semitism including "far-left activism against Israel," and adopting a national action plan for anti-Semitism.

Ya know, if they are considering all these events anti-semetic (and while I agree that a lot of opposition against Israel has anti-semetic roots), it is no wonder they are seeing such a huge increase...

But I agree things have gotten worst for Jews and Muslims since 2016.
Here is an newspiece in French with hard stats: Link

Code Select Expand


    2018 : 2041
    2017 : 1752
    2016 : 1728
    2015 : 1269
    2014 : 1627
    2009 : 1264


There's a spike right there... not a coincidence, imho, that it happens around the same time as the Mosque shooting in Quebec city.  And I trace the influence to right south of the border: the empowerement of all these neo nazi groups gave wings to many here.

While the media were entirely focused on a benign group, La Meute, other, nastier, groups reformed their rangs.  Pegida, Soldiers of Odin and Atalante, namely.  But they're spreading, like the far left, into smaller units so they're not decapitated when the police strike.  This is a lot more worrysome than some cartoon mocking extremists -of all sides- positions on a political subject.

As for the "money and the ethnic vote" quote, that was one isolated incident, in 1995.  Get over it.  Besides, it wasn't entirely false, given what we know of the LPC's tacticts during the referendum campaign.  But still in bad paste, especially from a Premier.

[Razgovory]

I'm going to tentatively side with the Frenchies here. I can't read the captions and don't think the drawings by themselves are proof of racism.

I didn't say anything about Racism.

[Malthus]

Anti-Semitism as measured by "incidents" is up everywhere in Canada (on average, by 16%) but is up by nearly 50% in Quebec, which has significantly more such incidents than Ontario despite having less Jews.

B'nai Brith proposes an eight-point plan to tackle anti-Semitism, which includes establishing dedicated hate crime units in every major city, holding universities accountable for campus anti-Semitism including "far-left activism against Israel," and adopting a national action plan for anti-Semitism.

Ya know, if they are considering all these events anti-semetic (and while I agree that a lot of opposition against Israel has anti-semetic roots), it is no wonder they are seeing such a huge increase...

But I agree things have gotten worst for Jews and Muslims since 2016.
Here is an newspiece in French with hard stats: Link

Code Select Expand


    2018 : 2041
    2017 : 1752
    2016 : 1728
    2015 : 1269
    2014 : 1627
    2009 : 1264


There's a spike right there... not a coincidence, imho, that it happens around the same time as the Mosque shooting in Quebec city.  And I trace the influence to right south of the border: the empowerement of all these neo nazi groups gave wings to many here.

While the media were entirely focused on a benign group, La Meute, other, nastier, groups reformed their rangs.  Pegida, Soldiers of Odin and Atalante, namely.  But they're spreading, like the far left, into smaller units so they're not decapitated when the police strike.  This is a lot more worrysome than some cartoon mocking extremists -of all sides- positions on a political subject.

As for the "money and the ethnic vote" quote, that was one isolated incident, in 1995.  Get over it.  Besides, it wasn't entirely false, given what we know of the LPC's tacticts during the referendum campaign.  But still in bad paste, especially from a Premier.

The quote is simply indicative of the concern that underlies all of these things: that certain minorities in Quebec, in this case Jews, tend to feel that when the chips are down, the majority of the population considers them the "other" in a way that isn't true in the rest of Canada.

This feelings can of course be self-reinforcing. Jews in Quebec overwhelmingly oppose Quebec being a separate nation. Why? Because they would rather remain part of a nation where they are considered "one of us" than one on which they are not. By opposing Quebec as a separate nation, however, they fuel the feeling that they are the "other" in Quebec: "money and the ethnic vote". 

Needless to say, an increase in anti-Semitic incidents doesn't help. One trick that anti-Semites play is lumping all Jews on together in one category, so every Jew is responsible for every dumb thing some ultra-orthodox Jew does, and of course all Jews everywhere are responsible for every bad thing done by the state of Israel. Never mind that the ultra-Orthodox tend to hate the existence of the state of Israel (they believe it is blasphemous), Jews get to be characterized by both (just as Jews could be simultaneously the power behind the excesses of both capitalism and communism ... ).

[viper37]

Needless to say, an increase in anti-Semitic incidents doesn't help. One trick that anti-Semites play is lumping all Jews on together in one category, so every Jew is responsible for every dumb thing some ultra-orthodox Jew does, and of course all Jews everywhere are responsible for every bad thing done by the state of Israel. Never mind that the ultra-Orthodox tend to hate the existence of the state of Israel (they believe it is blasphemous), Jews get to be characterized by both (just as Jews could be simultaneously the power behind the excesses of both capitalism and communism ... ).

The YMCA incident was from an Hasidic Jews community, I think.  Don't know if they believe in Israel or not.

Nevertheless, it is  worrying that we see an increase in anti-semetic incidents, and yes, all Jews are often lumped together, just like Muslims are often lumped together, and the actions of a few extremists are reflected on the entire community.  You'd be surprised at the number of people who believes all Jews look -not just act- like an ultra orthodox.

I know the Sûreté du Québec raided a few of these neonazis scums, but they're not always easy to arrest.  What is being said in a closed Facebook group has little chances of reaching the police eyes, unless members of said group are themselves alarmed at what they see.  It happens, but not that often, and only for the worst.

As for the harassment, when there's no official police report, there is no action there.  And even then, without visual evidences (camera), it's hard to find the culprit, a "white man, of average height and build".

But yeah, there's been a lot of work done over the years, trying to bridge the communities, documentaries were made, but you can't change 300 years of history overnight.

Hopefully, with decent governments in place in both Quebec and Ottawa, things will return to normal.

[Malthus]

The YMCA incident was from an Hasidic Jews community, I think.  Don't know if they believe in Israel or not.

That depends on which group. Most Hassidic groups, but not all, oppose Zionism (one often stated reason: creating a secular 'state of Israel' is considered a violation of religious prohibitions, as the 'three oaths' prohibits conquest through violence; more generally, a "state of Israel" ought to be a Hassidic theocracy, and it isn't).

For an absurdly abstruse discussion of the "Three Oaths":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

[Valmy]

Most Hassidic groups, but not all, oppose Zionism

But it states at your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

A faction of the Haredim who are strongly anti-Zionist often view this midrash as not being fulfilled, whereas the majority of the Haredim as well as Religious Zionists view it as being fulfilled and maintained, and now obsolete.

It sounds like you have it precisely backwards and the majority of Hassidic groups support Zionism.

[Malthus]

Most Hassidic groups, but not all, oppose Zionism

But it states at your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Oaths

A faction of the Haredim who are strongly anti-Zionist often view this midrash as not being fulfilled, whereas the majority of the Haredim as well as Religious Zionists view it as being fulfilled and maintained, and now obsolete.

It sounds like you have it precisely backwards and the majority of Hassidic groups support Zionism.

Not necessarily - what it means is that the majority of Hassidism don't oppose Zionism because of this particular interpretation of the "Three Oaths". There are still other reasons unconnected with the "Three Oaths" for opposing Zionism: for example, that the nation of Israel is secular, and not religious (often stated that the State isn't moral and can't be, because it isn't religious). 

As said before, the "Three Oaths" is only one oft-stated reason (among others) why most, but not all, Haridim tend to oppose Zionism.