737 Max grounded after second deadly crash by new airplane

[Zanza]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

[The Minsky Moment]

1972 was the year before the first big OPEC crisis.  American industry has changed a lot since then, for better or for worse, and there is no way to turn the clock backwards.

[viper37]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

hmm, I wonder if they would have acted so quickly with Airbus?

Anyway, Canada&USA have not grounded the planes so far.  I remember after the last accident, some changes were made to the planes in Canada and pilots had to train for the new software.  Maybe that's why they aren't grounded yet over here.

[viper37]

That's not three orders of magnitude, or even close, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.  If you were talking about elevator deaths (one of the safest methods of travel ever created) then you would have a point.

If we were operating on the death rate of 1970 we would have ~22,000 deaths in 2017, instead of the 44 that we actually had.  I'm pretty sure that the airlines made back the extra costs of the airplanes just on the reduced insurance.

I was using 1990 as the baseline earlier, because almost all the safety improvements came previous to that point and presumably the "computer scientists from MIT" needed to fly the plane in lieu of pilots came later. In 1970 I agree that flying wasn't that safe.

I didn't use 1990 as the cost basis of airlines because i googled for historic prices and the first link was the 1972 price list I linked to.

isn't it a bit... wrong, to use different starting point to compare the effectiveness of a measure?

[Zoupa]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

hmm, I wonder if they would have acted so quickly with Airbus?

Anyway, Canada&USA have not grounded the planes so far.  I remember after the last accident, some changes were made to the planes in Canada and pilots had to train for the new software.  Maybe that's why they aren't grounded yet over here.

Many companies operating flights in Canada have grounded their Max 8.

[alfred russel]

That's not three orders of magnitude, or even close, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.  If you were talking about elevator deaths (one of the safest methods of travel ever created) then you would have a point.

If we were operating on the death rate of 1970 we would have ~22,000 deaths in 2017, instead of the 44 that we actually had.  I'm pretty sure that the airlines made back the extra costs of the airplanes just on the reduced insurance.

I was using 1990 as the baseline earlier, because almost all the safety improvements came previous to that point and presumably the "computer scientists from MIT" needed to fly the plane in lieu of pilots came later. In 1970 I agree that flying wasn't that safe.

I didn't use 1990 as the cost basis of airlines because i googled for historic prices and the first link was the 1972 price list I linked to.

isn't it a bit... wrong, to use different starting point to compare the effectiveness of a measure?

Yeah, and i'll update the analysis if you can find 1990 price lists for aircraft. 

I'm certain I've put more thought into defending the president's dumbass tweets than he did before making them.

[crazy canuck]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

If only they would listen to Dorsey and his theory that it is all related to the condition of the toilets in the domestic departures area of the airport in Ethiopia.  No one would worry about the concerns about the software.

[Zanza]

It has now been grounded in Eurasia and Oceania...

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

hmm, I wonder if they would have acted so quickly with Airbus

All the Asians and the Australians grounded it before the Europeans.

[jimmy olsen]

Thanks a bunch Trump

https://qz.com/1570266/ethiopian-airlines-crash-us-shutdown-delayed-boeing-737-max-fixes/

Straightforward safety upgrades to the jets' software to fix the automated safety feature, were originally expected in January according to multiple reports. But they were delayed until April, the Wall Street Journal reported Feb. 10, because of "engineering challenges," "differences of opinion" between federal and Boeing officials, and the 35-day government shutdown, during  which "consideration of the fixes was suspended."

[alfred russel]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

If only they would listen to Dorsey and his theory that it is all related to the condition of the toilets in the domestic departures area of the airport in Ethiopia.  No one would worry about the concerns about the software.

They aren't grounded in the US.

Here is a deal offer: if one crashes in the US, I'll admit I was wrong and you were right. If one doesn't crash, you will admit you are wrong and I was right.

[crazy canuck]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

If only they would listen to Dorsey and his theory that it is all related to the condition of the toilets in the domestic departures area of the airport in Ethiopia.  No one would worry about the concerns about the software.

They aren't grounded in the US.

Here is a deal offer: if one crashes in the US, I'll admit I was wrong and you were right. If one doesn't crash, you will admit you are wrong and I was right.

They are now grounded in Canada.  The US may be the one hold out and the concern is the reason the US doesn't ground them is more motivated by Boeing's well being than concerns about public safety.  Now what were you saying about corruption in government causing an unsafe environment? 

edit: here is the reason given by the Canadian government

Garneau said the decision to issue the safety notice was made after his department received new data suggesting a similarity between the Ethiopian Airlines crash and another deadly crash off Indonesia in October.

I daresay, similarity of bathroom facilities at the airports was not the concern.  Rather it probably has something to do with the plane itself.

[Barrister]

I'm quite surprised we broke with the FAA on this one and grounded the 737-MAX.

Not saying it's the right or wrong call - it's well outside my expertise.  But since Transport Canada has the same information the FAA does it's surprising.

[crazy canuck]

I'm quite surprised we broke with the FAA on this one and grounded the 737-MAX.

Not saying it's the right or wrong call - it's well outside my expertise.  But since Transport Canada has the same information the FAA does it's surprising.

I agree.  I think they must have seen something that got them concerned.  We always follow the Americans on these things. It could also be yet another sign of how much we and the rest of the world are losing confidence in decisions made by American governmental agencies under the Trump regime.

[DGuller]

At this point it could also be that perception becomes reality.  If people are genuinely anxious about flying on the Max planes, then regardless of how well-founded the anxiety is, it could be simpler to just go with the flow, even if there is no new informaion.  It's also one of those calls where you're not punished for being unreasonably careful, but you're going to get a lot of shit for appearing to be not careful enough.

[Barrister]

At this point it could also be that perception becomes reality.  If people are genuinely anxious about flying on the Max planes, then regardless of how well-founded the anxiety is, it could be simpler to just go with the flow, even if there is no new informaion.  It's also one of those calls where you're not punished for being unreasonably careful, but you're going to get a lot of shit for appearing to be not careful enough.

Both of our airlines have quite a few 737-MAX planes flying with them, so grounding this airplane is going to cause significant disruption.