737 Max grounded after second deadly crash by new airplane

[DGuller]

The actual economic costs are quite real, but the general public doesn't give a flying fuck about them.  The political costs are misslgned with the economic costs.

[crazy canuck]

At this point it could also be that perception becomes reality.  If people are genuinely anxious about flying on the Max planes, then regardless of how well-founded the anxiety is, it could be simpler to just go with the flow, even if there is no new informaion.  It's also one of those calls where you're not punished for being unreasonably careful, but you're going to get a lot of shit for appearing to be not careful enough.

Both of our airlines have quite a few 737-MAX planes flying with them, so grounding this airplane is going to cause significant disruption.

Yeah, this is definitely not about going with the flow.  This is going to be very disruptive to the Canadian carriers, which is why we always follow the lead of the Americans.  If the Americans did it, it would make no sense from a safety or economic perspective not to follow.  It makes no sense from an economic perspective to make a different decision from the Americans.  So there must be some safety issue that has them concerned.

[alfred russel]

The European Air Safety Authority has grounded the 737 Max in Europe. https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-suspends-all-boeing-737-max-operations-europe

If only they would listen to Dorsey and his theory that it is all related to the condition of the toilets in the domestic departures area of the airport in Ethiopia.  No one would worry about the concerns about the software.

They aren't grounded in the US.

Here is a deal offer: if one crashes in the US, I'll admit I was wrong and you were right. If one doesn't crash, you will admit you are wrong and I was right.

They are now grounded in Canada.  The US may be the one hold out and the concern is the reason the US doesn't ground them is more motivated by Boeing's well being than concerns about public safety.  Now what were you saying about corruption in government causing an unsafe environment? 

edit: here is the reason given by the Canadian government

Garneau said the decision to issue the safety notice was made after his department received new data suggesting a similarity between the Ethiopian Airlines crash and another deadly crash off Indonesia in October.

I daresay, similarity of bathroom facilities at the airports was not the concern.  Rather it probably has something to do with the plane itself.

You have 2 crashes in 3rd world countries with corruption issues...

Typical you won't take up my offer but keep up your trolling.

I'm sure the planes can be made safer but with well trained and experienced pilots and support staff they are fine. Probably orders of magnitude safer than a lot of our commutes to work each day.

[crazy canuck]

The actual economic costs are quite real, but the general public doesn't give a flying fuck about them.  The political costs are misslgned with the economic costs.

In the past we have always followed the American's lead on aviation safety issues.  That is where the perceived expertise is located.  If your analysis is correct, it speaks volumes about the degree to which confidence in American regulatory agencies as declined.

[alfred russel]

The actual economic costs are quite real, but the general public doesn't give a flying fuck about them.  The political costs are misslgned with the economic costs.

In the past we have always followed the American's lead on aviation safety issues.  That is where the perceived expertise is located.  If your analysis is correct, it speaks volumes about the degree to which confidence in American regulatory agencies as declined.

So CC has confidence in Air Ethiopia, which has now had 247 times the fatalities in the past 10 years than the largest 5 north American carriers combined, but apparently lacks it in American regulatory agencies....

[Barrister]

The actual economic costs are quite real, but the general public doesn't give a flying fuck about them.  The political costs are misslgned with the economic costs.

In the past we have always followed the American's lead on aviation safety issues.  That is where the perceived expertise is located.  If your analysis is correct, it speaks volumes about the degree to which confidence in American regulatory agencies as declined.

So CC has confidence in Air Ethiopia, which has now had 247 times the fatalities in the past 10 years than the largest 5 north American carriers combined, but apparently lacks it in American regulatory agencies....

No comment on Ethiopia, but I do have confidence in Transport Canada.

[crazy canuck]

The actual economic costs are quite real, but the general public doesn't give a flying fuck about them.  The political costs are misslgned with the economic costs.

In the past we have always followed the American's lead on aviation safety issues.  That is where the perceived expertise is located.  If your analysis is correct, it speaks volumes about the degree to which confidence in American regulatory agencies as declined.

So CC has confidence in Air Ethiopia, which has now had 247 times the fatalities in the past 10 years than the largest 5 north American carriers combined, but apparently lacks it in American regulatory agencies....

I am not sure how the Transport Canada decision has anything to do with having confidence in Air Ethiopia. 

[DGuller]

So Trump grounds the planes in the US as well.  Do you guys still think that grounding was the right thing to do?

[alfred russel]

So Trump grounds the planes in the US as well.  Do you guys still think that grounding was the right thing to do?

No. I'll never admit I was wrong until a US, Canadian, Japanese, or European airline crashes one.

[viper37]

So Trump grounds the planes in the US as well.  Do you guys still think that grounding was the right thing to do?

No. I'll never admit I was wrong until a US, Canadian, Japanese, or European airline crashes one.

well. they are grounded everywhere now.  Hard to crash a grounded plane.

[alfred russel]

well. they are grounded everywhere now.  Hard to crash a grounded plane.

If that is the case, it seems like any perceived safety issues were corrected virtually overnight.

[crazy canuck]

well. they are grounded everywhere now.  Hard to crash a grounded plane.

If that is the case, it seems like any perceived safety issues were corrected virtually overnight.

Yep, no fly orders have that corrective effect.

[The Minsky Moment]

So Trump grounds the planes in the US as well.  Do you guys still think that grounding was the right thing to do?

No. I'll never admit I was wrong until a US, Canadian, Japanese, or European airline crashes one.

Australia is not amused. 

[alfred russel]

So Trump grounds the planes in the US as well.  Do you guys still think that grounding was the right thing to do?

No. I'll never admit I was wrong until a US, Canadian, Japanese, or European airline crashes one.

Australia is not amused.

I don't think they have gotten any of these planes delivered...

[jimmy olsen]

Looks like it may have been the same problem.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/canada-grounds-boeing-737-max-8-leaving-us-as-last-major-user-of-plane/2019/03/13/25ac2414-459d-11e9-90f0-0ccfeec87a61_story.html?utm_term=.b2735e38b739

FAA's emergency order grounding Boeing jets came after the agency identified similarities between crashes in Ethiopia, Indonesia

By Luz Lazo , Michael Laris ,Lori Aratani, Aaron Gregg and Damian Paletta

March 13 at 5:00 PM
The FAA developed new information from the wreckage of a 737 crash in Ethiopia that painted similarities to an earlier crash in Indonesia, leading the agency to ground all Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft in the U.S., three people familiar with the matter said.

President Trump on Wednesday grounded all Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, effective immediately. The wording in the emergency order is similar to that used by Canadian officials who hours earlier had issued an order grounding the planes.

"Any plane currently in the air will go to its destination and thereafter be grounded until further notice," Trump said. "The safety of the American people, and all people, is our paramount concern."

The order states that the similarities "warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed."

Trump's announcement followed one by Canada's transportation minister grounding all the jets, saying a review of satellite-tracking data by his country's experts found similarities between Sunday's crash of an Ethio­pian Airlines jet and an October Lion Air crash.

The news had left the United States and its carriers as the last major users of the aircraft.

[Two plane crashes in five months: What the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines flights have in common]

Shortly after 3 p.m. the FAA issued a statement confirming the official order.

"The FAA is ordering the temporary grounding of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft operated by U.S. airlines or in U.S. territory." the statement said. "The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today. This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision."


The order temporarily halts all flights of the Boeing MAX 8 and MAX 9 planes, effective immediately.

"On March 13, 2019, the investigation of the [Ethiopian Airlines] crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between the" Ethiopia and Indonesia crashes, according to the order.

Those similarities "warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed," the order says.

Once current U.S. flights land, they "may not again takeoff," according to the order. Special flight permits may be issued, "including to allow non-passenger carrying flights, as needed, for purposes of flight to a base for storage, production flight testing, repairs, alterations, or maintenance," according to the order.

The order also says "experimental airworthiness certificates" may be issued "to support certification of design changes."

The order will ground more than 70 aircraft and covers both the 737 Max 8 and Max 9, another plane in the series. The aircraft is used byAmerican and Southwest airlines, which combined have 58 Max 8s in their fleets. United Airlines has 14 of the Max 9 planes.

Boeing said that it continues to have full confidence in the safety of both the Max 8 and Max 9, but after consulting with the FAA, the NTSB, aviation authorities and its customers, decided to suspend operations of its entire global fleet of 371 Max aircraft.

"Boeing has determined — out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety — to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft," the company said in a statement, adding that is supported the FAA's decision.

"We are supporting this proactive step out of an abundance of caution," the statement said. "We are doing everything we can to understand the cause of the accidents in partnership with the investigators, deploy safety enhancements and help ensure this does not happen again."

While unions representing pilots had voiced support for the FAA's reluctance to ground the craft leading up to Wednesday, the plane had developed an unfavorable reputation among many pilots.

Officials at American Airlines, which earlier in the day had reiterated its belief that the planes were safe to fly, said they were now being grounded out of "an abundance of caution."

"Earlier today the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) informed us that based on new information, they are grounding the United States Boeing 737 MAX fleet out of an abundance of caution," the airline said in a statement.


"We appreciate the FAA's partnership, and will continue to work closely with them, the Department of Transportation, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, as well as our aircraft and engine manufacturers," the airline said. "Our teams will be working to rebook customers as quickly as possible, and we apologize for any inconvenience."

Southwest said it was "is immediately complying" with the FAA order, noting that it operates a fleet of more than 750 Boeing 737s and that the 34 Max 8s in it's fleet "account for less than five percent of our daily flights."

"We have been in constant contact with the FAA and Boeing since Ethiopian Airlines' accident last Sunday," the airline said in a statement. "While we remain confident in the MAX 8 after completing more than 88,000 flight hours accrued over 41,000 flights, we support the actions of the FAA and other regulatory agencies and governments across the globe that have asked for further review of the data — including information from the flight data recorder — related to the recent accident involving the MAX 8."


Board chair and Southwest chief executive Gary Kelly said: "During our 48-year history, Southwest has continuously demonstrated our commitment to Safety. We sincerely appreciate the trust our Customers and Employees place in our airline every day, and the Southwest Team is working diligently to minimize disruptions to our Customers' travel plans."

Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau said he issued the "safety notice" after the newly-available data was reviewed Wednesday morning.

"At this point, we feel that that threshold has been crossed and that is why we are taking these measures," Garneau said.

Garneau said the safety notice halts Boeing 737 MAX aircraft from arriving, departing or using Canadian airspace, effective immediately. The notice also covers the Max 9.

Garneau said the new information reviewed Wednesday is satellite tracking data that is collected when an aircraft takes off. He said the data provides an indication of the plane's course and its vertical profile.

"My experts have looked at this and compared it to the flight that occurred with Lion Air six months ago in October, and . . . there are similarities that sort of exceed a certain threshold in our minds with respect to the possible cause of what happened in Ethi­o­pia," he said.

At a Wednesday afternoon news conference, Elwell, of the FAA, said delays in getting the damaged flight data recorders to a place where information could be retrieved contributed to the agency's decision to ground the planes now. Ethiopia has the capability to read black boxes, but not heavily damaged ones as in this case, he said.

The current plan is to have them on a plane to France Wednesday night, he said.

"We had been hopeful all along, with the black boxes being discovered so soon after the incident, that we could get them on a table and start pulling data to help us inform our decision one way or another" about whether to ground the airplanes, Elwell said. "That process was lengthened more than I had hoped, to the point where the boxes still are in Ethiopia. But at least now we have a plan to get them out of country."

Asked what role U.S. investigators will play in analyzing the black box data, Elwell said, per international protocol, Ethiopia is taking the lead — "their soil, their aircraft, their airline," he said.

[Ethiopian pilots received new training for 737 Max after Indonesian crash]

But he said U.S. inspectors have been cooperating with their Ethiopian counterparts from the onset of the tragedy and they will continue to do so. "Together, FAA and [the National Transportation Safety Board] are helping Ethiopian accident investigation board," he said.

In a preliminary report of the Oct. 29 Lion Air crash, a device known as an "angle of attack" sensor mistakenly indicated the plane's nose was too high, prompting the plane's automation software to push the plane downward. The Lion Air pilots fought to raise the plane's nose but were unable to sending the plane crashing into the Java Sea.

In November, An American Airlines spokesman said that the airline followed all procedures outlined by Boeing and in a separate emergency directive from the FAA in the wake of the Lion Air crash.

American Airlines said Wednesday that it has reviewed data for more than 14,000 flights since the Lion Air Flight 610 crash and has not seen a single anomaly related to the sensor.

"At American, we have not had similar issues regarding an erroneous Angle of Attack during manual flight," spokesman Ross Feinstein said, responding to questions about pilot complaints and concerns about flying a MAX 8.

He said the airline had complied with an FAA airworthiness directive following the Indonesian crash, and said the directive "reiterated existing, well established procedures for MAX 8 pilots."

American's fleet of 24 MAX 8 aircraft first went into operation in November 2017 and have a combined total of more than 46,400 operating hours and nearly 18,000 cycles.

Officials around the world have cited the continued absence of clear information from the Ethio­pian Air plane to call for Boeing 737 Max 8 jets to be grounded.

The data from the two flight recorders are eagerly awaited as investigators look for any connection between Sunday's crash and the October crash of Air Lion flight.

[FAA doubles down on decision not to ground the Boeing 737 Max, as counterparts around the world have done]

In the months leading up to the crash of Ethio­pian Airlines flight 302, pilots from around the U.S. had expressed exasperation about the aircraft's systems, which limited their control of the planes they were commanding, according to a confidential safety reporting system hosted by NASA.

Pilots wrote of the inadequate training on automation-assisted flying systems, unfamiliarity with the controls, anxiety that prompted them to engage auto­pilot earlier than normal and at least two instances where the plane pitched downward or maneuvered against pilots' inputs.

"I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models," one pilot reported in November, according to the NASA database. "The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error prone--even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place, and failure modes."

The pilot went on to question how the manufacturer could subject those in the cockpit to a system with which they had so little familiarity.

"I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?" the pilot said. "The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."

It was one of about a dozen complaints about the Boeing 737 MAX in a NASA safety database, first reported by the Dallas Morning News, which chronicles the extent to which pilots were leery of the new aircraft, anxious about their training, and concerned about automated flying assistance features such as a new sensor system in the plane.

After China grounded the plane on Monday, most countries followed suit, including much of Europe. The latest bans were issued by India, Egypt, Uzbekistan, Turkey and Hong Kong.

Ethio­pian Airlines chief executive Tewolde Gebremariam told CNN on Tuesday that the pilot reported "flight control problems" and asked to return to the airport.

Tewolde said that the boxes would be sent abroad "because we don't have the equipment here" to analyze their data.

While Tewolde of Ethio­pian Airlines said the cause of the crash was not yet clear, he cast doubt on the airworthiness of the 737 Max.

"Two major fatal accidents on the same airplane model, brand new airplane model, in six months — so there are a lot of questions to be answered on the airplane," he said.

[Grounding of Boeing jets has some passengers — even experienced ones — feeling jittery]

In remarks to local media, Tewolde also revealed that pilots received additional training from Boeing to fly the 737 Max after an Indonesian domestic Lion Air flight crashed into the Java Sea shortly after takeoff last year.

"After the Lion Air crash, questions were raised, so Boeing sent further instructions that it said pilots should know," he said, according to the Associated Press. "Those relate to the specific behavior of this specific type of aircraft. As a result, training was given by Boeing, and our pilots have taken it and put it into our manuals."

Lazo, Laris, Aratani, Gregg and Paletta reported from Washington. Paul Schemm contributed to this report from Addis Ababa, Ethi­o­pia. Felicia Sonmez contributed from Washington.