Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[HVC]

I find the idea that Musk isn't already known as a liar and an asshole a bit weird.

It's not that it isn't known fact that hes a liar and an asshole*, it's the fact that some try to hand wave it away because of their hero worship. It's annoying.

* although some people don't know. And some of us learn something new once in a while.

Who does that?

I could give you a list. it's rather short on this forum, but have I very strong feeling you know who they are already.

[The Brain]

I find the idea that Musk isn't already known as a liar and an asshole a bit weird.

It's not that it isn't known fact that hes a liar and an asshole*, it's the fact that some try to hand wave it away because of their hero worship. It's annoying.

* although some people don't know. And some of us learn something new once in a while.

Who does that?

I could give you a list. it's rather short on this forum, but have the very strong feeling you know who they are already.

FWIW I don't.

[HVC]

I find the idea that Musk isn't already known as a liar and an asshole a bit weird.

It's not that it isn't known fact that hes a liar and an asshole*, it's the fact that some try to hand wave it away because of their hero worship. It's annoying.

* although some people don't know. And some of us learn something new once in a while.

Who does that?

I could give you a list. it's rather short on this forum, but have the very strong feeling you know who they are already.

FWIW I don't.

Well then I guess I misjudged you. A shame for the both of us.

[The Brain]

I find the idea that Musk isn't already known as a liar and an asshole a bit weird.

It's not that it isn't known fact that hes a liar and an asshole*, it's the fact that some try to hand wave it away because of their hero worship. It's annoying.

* although some people don't know. And some of us learn something new once in a while.

Who does that?

I could give you a list. it's rather short on this forum, but have the very strong feeling you know who they are already.

FWIW I don't.

Well then I guess I misjudged you. A shame for the both of us.

OK?

[Josquius]

I looked on twitter. Musk making a meme of Donald trump fucking twitter?..... Man this whole thing is bizzare.

[Berkut]

I find the idea that Musk isn't already known as a liar and an asshole a bit weird.

It's not that it isn't known fact that hes a liar and an asshole*, it's the fact that some try to hand wave it away because of their hero worship. It's annoying.

* although some people don't know. And some of us learn something new once in a while.

Who does that?

I could give you a list. it's rather short on this forum, but have the very strong feeling you know who they are already.

FWIW I don't.

It is apparently some kind of strange mystery.

I am trying to find an example of someone on Languish who has said he isn't a liar and an asshole, but I cannot find anyone at all.

[Iormlund]

Now, not every engineer has to be a PE, although in many fields it is seen as an important step in one's career. But I don't know any "real" field of engineering where it is considered appropriate to call yourself an engineer when you don't even have an engineering degree.

I don't know a single PE, and I've worked with hundreds of engineers. Perhaps someone had the accreditation, mind you, but it's never come up.

A great deal of engineers don't have a degree either. I never finished mine, for example. And I've been working as an engineer for my entire professional career. I make the same (or more) than my licensed colleagues. I have the same job title and role.

The one and only advantage of the degree in most fields is that it makes getting past HR A LOT easier. After that you're typically judged on your experience and recommendations.

There are, of course, exceptions. Roles where legal liability is a key issue: civil engineering, health and safety, etc.
But in my experience most engineers don't do that sort of thing.
Again IME most engineers don't even work as actual engineers. For example, I'm actually the only one of my class mates who developed a career at technical roles (sort of, I eventually "ascended" to half-tech half-management). The rest work in sales, marketing, logistics, quality, or health and safety.

[OttoVonBismarck]

You're not in the United States, right? I have literally no idea how things are in Europe. In the US PE certification is certainly not universal, but in certain fields of engineering it is considered essential for career progression and is certainly not uncommon, and outside of software engineering virtually no one with a "real" engineering job is hired without some form of engineering degree.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Looking it up--in the U.S. around 50% of engineers end up becoming PEs (this excludes software engineers, which did not even have a PE exam until relatively recently, and again--in many ways software engineers are a little outside of the traditional discipline.)

While there doesn't appear to be great comprehensive data, looking at things like the BLS OOH (a government publication on various job fields), it appears that basically no one works as a chemical, civil, mechanical or aerospace engineer without a college degree--and almost always some sort of engineering degree. The specific subspecialty degree appears to be a little less important--for example it isn't unheard for someone with a degree in Mechanical Engineering to get hired as an Aerospace Engineer. It also appears to be possible to get into ChemE with a non-engineering degree if it is in a closely related field like Chemistry.

While what you describe seemed to be normal in the United States back before the 1970s, I think by and large the field of engineering in the United States is almost exclusively viewed as a college graduate field--with again, SWEs being an exception--it should be noted the very term software engineer is pretty squishy. "Computer programmers" often have the title software engineer, software developer, computer programmer, programmer analyst etc, which are all jobs that essentially describe the same thing--writing computer code for a living. There is something of a movement, and there are schools/colleges developing programs to embrace it, to try and formalize codesmithing into something more than just a job title but "real" engineering, and you can now get Master's in Software Engineering and things like that, but things like the standards body, the uniform curriculum across accredited schools and other certifications are not nearly as present in software as in the other engineering fields.

FWIW "professionalization" is not uncommon in the United States. You used to be able to become a lawyer in the United States by simply reading law (no degrees required), and in fact while it's incredibly niche, a few states still allow it. Becoming a doctor used to be done via apprenticeship as well, and you also have fields like Accounting where lots of people work as "accountants" without a degree. But the accounting industry has worked to professionalize the degree, and that's why you often see them label non-degreed people who just keep the books "bookkeepers" and things of that nature, and that's why the CPA exam (which requires 150 hours of undergraduate study to sit for), to create the imprimatur of professionalization around the field.

[Berkut]

The first result when googling if you can be an engineer in America without an engineering degree:
https://www.mooc.org/blog/can-i-be-an-engineer-without-a-degree

Does being an engineer require a degree?

Most engineers tend to have traditional degrees. However, degrees are not always strict requirements to work in the field. For instance, the field of computer engineering sees many self-taught computer programmers.

Self-taught engineers can begin with junior or entry level positions and work their way up to more advanced positions. For example:

Electrical technicians can gain experience wiring systems and installing hardware as part of their pathway to becoming electrical engineers.
CAD technicians help draft designs for buildings and machinery and have opportunities to transition into architectural or structural engineering roles.
Junior level computer programmers can learn the basics of a specialization such as web development or mobile development on their way to becoming full-fledged software engineers.
Some engineers get started with an associate's degree. Others get their foot in the door by taking online courses or enrolling in intense coding bootcamp. Learning the basic skills is an important first step before trying to apply for an engineering job. Although it can be challenging, it is certainly possible to work your way up and get an engineering job without a degree.

And again, Musk describing himself as an engineer is rather general and vernacular. There is nothing particularly noteworthy about him calling himself an "engineer". 

If he claimed he had a degree and did not, then his is a liar. But claiming he is an engineer, or describing his work or how he sees himself as being an "engineer" is not a lie, just because he didn't get a degree in engineering.

And excluding software engineers (which hilariously is what he actually started as) from engineering is classic No True Scotsman fallacy.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Note that none of this also debunks the reality that Musk does not do engineering work, there is no evidence he does--and plenty of evidence based on commentary he has engaged in very recently that he does not have any deep technical knowledge of many of the things on which he speaks or that his companies do. Which BTW...would be, perfectly normal/appropriate for a CEO? The CEO of Kellogg's almost certainly doesn't know the nitty gritty of food science, growing wheat, or how to operate machines that make sugary cereal. Nor should he.

But if he went around calling himself a farmer because Kellogg is one of the bigger consumers of industrial wheat production, people would call that out for how stupid it is.

[Berkut]

https://www.zippia.com/engineer-jobs/demographics/

TYPES OF ENGINEER DEGREE LEVELS
The most common degree for engineers is bachelor's degree 65% of engineers earn that degree. A close second is master's degree with 13% and rounding it off is associate degree with 11%.
Job Title

• 
  Bachelors, 65%
• 
  Masters, 13%
• 
  Associate, 11%
• 
  High School Diploma, 5%
• 
  Other Degrees, 6%

Engineers By Education

[th]Engineer Degree [/th] [th]Percentages [/th]
Bachelors	65%
Masters	13%
Associate	11%
High School Diploma	5%
Other Degrees	6%

[Berkut]

Note that none of this also debunks the reality that Musk does not do engineering work, there is no evidence he does--and plenty of evidence based on commentary he has engaged in very recently that he does not have any deep technical knowledge of many of the things on which he speaks or that his companies do. Which BTW...would be, perfectly normal/appropriate for a CEO? The CEO of Kellogg's almost certainly doesn't know the nitty gritty of food science, growing wheat, or how to operate machines that make sugary cereal. Nor should he.

But if he went around calling himself a farmer because Kellogg is one of the bigger consumers of industrial wheat production, people would call that out for how stupid it is.

But that isn't what your breathless hit piece was about - it was about how he lied about being an engineer. 

If the CEO of Kellogg used to be a farmer, and called himself a farmer, I don't think anyone would care whether or not he had a degree in agriculture. 

[Berkut]

You know, even if I am 100% right about this, he is still just as big an asshole....right?

It's not like his being a douchebag was somehow mitigated by whether or not he went and got himself a physics degree at some point or not.

[OttoVonBismarck]

So your post confirms at least 95% of people in those fields have college degrees lol, that's basically confirming my point. BTW when I was looking up hard data on how many engineers were in the field and with what degrees, I saw that same site and chose not to cite it, because its sourcing appeared to be weak--but I was tempted to cite it anyway since it confirmed my claims, hilarious that you would post it thinking it supports yours.