Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Berkut]

That does not seem to be the appropriate level of detail for the CEO.

Yeah, I really doubt that a CEO's place is "down in the trenches" so to speak, taking care of the nitty gritty parts of the business. This situation is also relevant because it shows that, for Musk, Twitter's problem is one that can be solved by hard skills like coding great software, or whatever, rather than one that needs of softer skills like developing a viable and profitable business model. I guess that engineers sometimes don't make for great executives.

As has been said before, Twitter is not a novelty start-up that needs its employees to put up the hours to develop something from scratch, it's a mature operation that needs to be well managed.

I will play Devils Advocate here.

I think an executive at a technology company is in fact very well served by having a reasonably advanced understanding of the technology stack for the company they are running.

It isn't a necessary skill - you can be a very good exec without knowing that. But it is in fact a useful skill and knowledge for that particular kind of executive, which I think Musk is in fact.

But it is ridiculous to imagine that the way to learn that is by having a meeting with your engineers. Is their technology stack not internally documented? That seems rather hard to believe. And makes me think demanding such a meeting is more about the show of the meeting then actually trying to understand that tech stack.

Finally....while I think the CEO of Twitter, if they are a technical CEO, is well served by a solid understanding of Twitters technology....I don't think that is remotely useful information for the guy running SpaceX and Tesla. The kind of "engineering CEO" who is served by that level of detailed knowedge cannot possibly be a part time CEO, running multiple tech companies, each of which serves a radically different kind of technological service.

[Admiral Yi]

Didn't Trump get his degree from Wharton as well? 

I was just gonna say.

[The Larch]

That does not seem to be the appropriate level of detail for the CEO.

Yeah, I really doubt that a CEO's place is "down in the trenches" so to speak, taking care of the nitty gritty parts of the business. This situation is also relevant because it shows that, for Musk, Twitter's problem is one that can be solved by hard skills like coding great software, or whatever, rather than one that needs of softer skills like developing a viable and profitable business model. I guess that engineers sometimes don't make for great executives.

As has been said before, Twitter is not a novelty start-up that needs its employees to put up the hours to develop something from scratch, it's a mature operation that needs to be well managed.

I will play Devils Advocate here.

I think an executive at a technology company is in fact very well served by having a reasonably advanced understanding of the technology stack for the company they are running.

It isn't a necessary skill - you can be a very good exec without knowing that. But it is in fact a useful skill and knowledge for that particular kind of executive, which I think Musk is in fact.

But it is ridiculous to imagine that the way to learn that is by having a meeting with your engineers. Is their technology stack not internally documented? That seems rather hard to believe. And makes me think demanding such a meeting is more about the show of the meeting then actually trying to understand that tech stack.

Finally....while I think the CEO of Twitter, if they are a technical CEO, is well served by a solid understanding of Twitters technology....I don't think that is remotely useful information for the guy running SpaceX and Tesla. The kind of "engineering CEO" who is served by that level of detailed knowedge cannot possibly be a part time CEO, running multiple tech companies, each of which serves a radically different kind of technological service.

Understanding for sure, I don't think anyone could disagree with that, but that's not what Musk is doing as you also say. One thing is undestanding how the company and its software work, which is comendable, and another is doing this kind of meets for showmanship about how brilliant he is redesigning the company on the fly and putting all his employees on edge. Most of the stuff that Musk is doing to Twitter is being done wide open and in public for everyone to see, rather than through the proper internal channels, like the call for any "employee who can code" to go and meet him in person and show him their stuff. It's quite head scratching to me.

[grumbler]

Some of what the tweetstorm says seems plausible and evidenced.  Some of it doesn't.  The whole Wharton School slam is ludicrous, and his evidence is that Trump graduated from there.

1.  The fact that Trump graduated from there isn't by itself evidence of anything, and
2.  Wharton School does not give out undergraduate degrees; you have to have one already to get in.  That's sloppy reporting, because it is also true of every other school of business.  UPenn issued Musk's degree(s?). 

The illogical Wharton attack damages the cred of this guy for anything that cannot be independently verified.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Some of what the tweetstorm says seems plausible and evidenced.  Some of it doesn't.  The whole Wharton School slam is ludicrous, and his evidence is that Trump graduated from there.

1.  The fact that Trump graduated from there isn't by itself evidence of anything, and
2.  Wharton School does not give out undergraduate degrees; you have to have one already to get in.  That's sloppy reporting, because it is also true of every other school of business.  UPenn issued Musk's degree(s?). 

The illogical Wharton attack damages the cred of this guy for anything that cannot be independently verified.

What's sloppy is you not knowing how business schools work in the United States. The vast majority of colleges have business schools that admit students during their undergraduate course of study (often during junior year) and offer Bachelor of Science degrees typically in Business Administration with a specific Major listed.

I don't know if you assumed Wharton only issues MBAs (which are only given to graduate students), but that is not the case.

At many colleges undergraduate degrees in Management, Accounting, Finance, and sometimes Economics are offered through the undergraduate business schools. Obviously, it varies from place to place, but it is not generally a rule you require a degree to enter business school at most universities.

This is from Wharton's own website, FWIW:

Wharton offers a four-year, blended program of business and liberal arts and sciences. Unlike most other business programs in which you must wait until your junior year to begin business courses. During your freshman year, you will take Wharton 101, a gateway course that introduces the School's various business disciplines and engages students in learning about their personal strengths and leadership potential, and 2-3 other required business courses. You also will be able to integrate your Wharton and non-Wharton courses throughout your four years of study at Penn.

The University of Virgina's undergraduate school of commerce admits students in Junior year, as stated on their website:

The McIntire School of Commerce is an upper-division school at the University of Virginia. This means that students typically:

Apply in their second year
Enter the School in their third year after completing two years of liberal arts and business prerequisites

The Cornell School of Business offers two undergraduate programs:

Are you looking to pursue a bachelor's degree? Choose from two undergraduate business programs in the Cornell SC Johnson College of Business. Each program is offered by a top-ranked school—the Charles H. Dyson School of Applied Economics and Management and the Cornell Peter and Stephanie Nolan School of Hotel Administration—and will give you a distinct set of experiences to match your interests and ambitions.

This would have been very, very easy for you to have researched and it is clear you didn't. I expect no meaningful acceptance you were blind wrong on this one as I know better at this point.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Also it shows a pretty serious ignorance of Trump to think Wharton only admits graduates--Trump fairly famously transferred to Wharton after 2 years of undergraduate studies at Fordham, and also pretty famously Trump's father was able to help him get admitted, Trump also similarly helped Don Jr get admitted to Wharton in the 1990s--all of this well reported on during Trump's Presidency.

[grumbler]

I'll take the hit on the existence of undergrad education at some of the B-schools, including Wharton.  Stanford doesn't have that, nor Harvard, nor Ross when I was at Michigan (but they do now), so I didn't check far enough.

As for the "fairly famously" stuff, that phrase is a euphemism for "as no one knows."  And, again, the existence of Donald Trump or Donald Trump Jr is independent of the existence of Elon Musk.  There's no evidence that Wharton has ever granted degrees to the underserving, the fact that someone really really wants that to be true notwithstanding.

That also doesn't change the fact that Musk isn't able to credibly deny that he was in the US illegally for at least a year.

[HVC]

In more 3d chess genius moves, when Twitter head of ad sales resigned musk begged her to stay, and then later fired her. You can't quit, you're fired!

[OttoVonBismarck]

There's no evidence that Wharton has ever granted degrees to the underserving, the fact that someone really really wants that to be true notwithstanding.

"Undeserving" has no meaning in this discussion, and there is a reason no one used such a stupid term until you just used it to try and confuse the issue.

Schools determine who deserves a degree, so anyone issued a degree was deemed deserving. What would have meaning is comparing Musk's official transcript to the intended outline of study for someone given his degree. That would help explain how someone can complete 2 years of an undergraduate physics program in three years, and then leave campus (i.e. drop out) and somehow have a degree in economics 2 years after that. Mind you we also know that during that 2-year interim he was living on the other side of the country running his first company--it is hard to imagine he was completing a correspondence course in economics in his spare time with UPenn.

What does seem likely is he was given "experiential credit" for some of his business work, which is something the school can do if it so chooses, but probably wouldn't be something either Wharton or Musk would love being highly publicized.

What also seems without much doubt is he does not have a Physics degree--as seen from the legal case he was involved in showing he has a 1997 Economics degree which leaves an almost 2 full year gap in his visa situation from back then--assuming he procured an H1B once he got his degree in 1997. Even more damning is the fact someone took the time to pull the published list of physics department undergraduates who attained graduation back in that time, and Musk's name never appeared on the list.

[celedhring]

When I was studying in the US in the 2000s, as a foreigner under an F-1 it was possible to apply to temporarily drop your courses and spend a year doing practical training (as in doing paid work) before completing your degree. But that employment had to be related to the degree you were pursuing, and the whole thing would have left a paper trail (the school had to approve it, USCIS had to approve it, and you were issued a bunch of stuff and had to provide proof of employment every - I think - 60 days?).

[Josquius]

On the topic of billionaires wanting to spread their genes to "win" at evolution: I remember some years ago reading an article about a Japanese billionaire who wanted to have a hundred kids. He was, apparently, pursuing it primarily via offering Thai women something like ~$1 million to have his kid. IIRC he was well on his way.

On the flipside of that, there was a story on Humans of New York about a dude who'd gotten the inside track as sperm donor to lesbian couples. He wasn't racking up numbers like this Japanese billionaire, but he was competitive with Musk - clocking in around 20 or so IIRC (and he hasn't stopped yet either).

Is this the super religious Jewish guy who said he was aiming for 18 or something as its a holy number and after that it would be 36?

I must admit in the past I've often been tempted by this. It does seem a good thing all round. I doubt my gf would approve however.

[The Larch]

So apparently Elon's free speech absolutism does have its limits, and he has categorically ruled out lifting the ban to Alex Jones.

[Berkut]

There's no evidence that Wharton has ever granted degrees to the underserving, the fact that someone really really wants that to be true notwithstanding.

"Undeserving" has no meaning in this discussion, and there is a reason no one used such a stupid term until you just used it to try and confuse the issue.

Schools determine who deserves a degree, so anyone issued a degree was deemed deserving. What would have meaning is comparing Musk's official transcript to the intended outline of study for someone given his degree. That would help explain how someone can complete 2 years of an undergraduate physics program in three years, and then leave campus (i.e. drop out) and somehow have a degree in economics 2 years after that. Mind you we also know that during that 2-year interim he was living on the other side of the country running his first company--it is hard to imagine he was completing a correspondence course in economics in his spare time with UPenn.

What does seem likely is he was given "experiential credit" for some of his business work, which is something the school can do if it so chooses, but probably wouldn't be something either Wharton or Musk would love being highly publicized.

What also seems without much doubt is he does not have a Physics degree--as seen from the legal case he was involved in showing he has a 1997 Economics degree which leaves an almost 2 full year gap in his visa situation from back then--assuming he procured an H1B once he got his degree in 1997. Even more damning is the fact someone took the time to pull the published list of physics department undergraduates who attained graduation back in that time, and Musk's name never appeared on the list.

I suspect that if this is exactly as "damning" as you imagine it might be....it's still pretty not very damning.

The extent that any particular person is going to be SHOCKED, SHOCKED I SAY at such perfidy is, I think, exactly and precisely aligned with how much they despised Musk before they found out he might have been in the country "illegally" or dropped out of college without getting his degree and then fudged about that later.

[Berkut]

When I was studying in the US in the 2000s, as a foreigner under an F-1 it was possible to apply to temporarily drop your courses and spend a year doing practical training (as in doing paid work) before completing your degree. But that employment had to be related to the degree you were pursuing, and the whole thing would have left a paper trail (the school had to approve it, USCIS had to approve it, and you were issued a bunch of stuff and had to provide proof of employment every - I think - 60 days?).

I would more generally observe that there are a lot, A LOT, of people who immigrate to the US, end up staying here nominally legally, who at some point in the process was likely technically supposed to have left while something was sorted out or resolved.

That part, at least, is pretty much a non-issue for me. Who fucking cares? Of all the not-strictly legal immigrants working in the US, we should care that Elon Musk might not have been entirely legal at some point in the distant past?

[Berkut]

Before it gets confused - again, this is not about me defending Musk as much as it is about my previous observation that those who get worked up over things like this (or argue that he hasn't actually accomplished much) are exhibiting classic confirmation bias.