The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Iormlund]

To be fair, I don't know much about Spanish politics.  I suggested the pardons because it tends to calm things down.  It's also somewhat humiliating to the political leaders who receive them and damages their credibility.

Not at all the outcome in this case. They would understand pardons as sanctioning what they did, which was no less than a coup. A shitty, hopeless coup, but one nonetheless. One which has fractured Catalan society in two.

The problem with these sort of shenanigans is that until now there were no consequences. The constitution says X? The courts say Y? Fuck them. I'm untouchable.
The one silver lining is that now it has dawned on them that actions have consequences. That's why despite the constant aggressive rhetoric, the separatist establishment (politicians and civil servants) has done essentially nothing for the past two years.

My one worry is the sentences might be too mild to discourage others. 8-13 years sounds like a lot, but they will be eligible for partial release in a few months to a year. They will serve 2-3 years, and as VIP prisoners (since separatists control the penitentiary system in Catalonia).

[Iormlund]

As a comparison, the last guy to head a coup (which lasted less than 24 hours and during which no one was injured) served 16 years, 13 before any kind of partial release.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Well Québec independantists didn't suffer any witchunt, because, well, they have the right to express their desire to leave Canada. Why should it be different elsewhere?

It is illegal in Spain to steal public funds to organize a referendum that the government has no power to organize. Whether Quebec has the power to hold secessionist referendums in the totally different nation of Canada is irrelevant.

As if anything the Spanish state says can be taken for thruth in this matter.
Spain is the China of the EU, including the beating up of civilians.

[Iormlund]

 

Show us on the doll where they hurt you.

[celedhring]

So, protests turned violent tonight. There's some fires downtown. Police fighting rioters. I never got the logic behind "I hate Spain! I want Catalonia to be independent! Let's burn down Barcelona!"

Also the logic behind the Catalan government encouraging the protests and then sending in the riot police. Then again, they're insane.

[Valmy]

Rise up people of Catalonia!

Wait...um...nevermind be suppressed!

[celedhring]

Rise up people of Catalonia!

Wait...um...nevermind be suppressed!

One of the Catalan ministers literally said today the Catalan police charged and dispersed protesters to protect them from the Spanish state (who would have jailed them instead).

[Valmy]

I am sure all those people beaten by the cops are grateful.

[celedhring]

Catalan riot police either has brass balls or shit for brains. I'm not sure that gear is fireproof.

[Sheilbh]

Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums?   

Scotland's referendum was negotiated with the Westminster government and conducted based on UK legislation. The SNP government are planning to hold a unilateral referendum (depending on Brexit) on the basis that that will represent a material change from when Scotland was last asked.

In my mind there's a difference between the theater, the speeches, the proclamations, the flying of independence flags and violence. Lincoln felt it important to wait for the South to fire the first shot.

Agree. Also I know this wasn't how they saw it, but I have an issue with viewing a peaceful, democratic, secessionist movement aiming to establish a democratic state is different than one looking to secede to ensure slavery survives.

The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law?  They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".

Agreed. But I've literally never understood what the Spanish state is trying to achieve. It seems to always escalate when ignoring and moving on would probably work better.

Take this court case: what is the best case scenario?

As I see it you get convictions which creates martyrs and the current situation, or you get slap-on-the-wrist convictions which strengthens them because it indicates the court views this whole prosecution as technically right but ridiculous, or they get which also strengthens them. What outcome did the Spanish state want?

Separately I find it really interesting that it's separatism that has sparked the far right in Spain, while in the rest of Europe it's broadly been immigration in one form or other.

[celedhring]

Two things. The court could hardly look away, it's not there to make politically motivated decisions on whether it is more politically expedient to sentence or not. Also, Madrid already tried the "look away and move on" approach on the two previous "referendums", and it just enticed separatists to keep raising their bet.

Current Spanish administration seems more willing to just have them stew in their juices and wait until someone more sane is in charge of Catalonia (they already offered further devolution last year and they were rebuked by the Catalan government), but I'm afraid the right will benefit from the current disturbances and we'll get a very weak government next November, or an altogether hung parliament. This will not help the crisis.

[Sheilbh]

Two things. The court could hardly look away, it's not there to make politically motivated decisions on whether it is more politically expedient to sentence or not.

Sure, but presumably the prosecutors have discretion in this. I agree about the court.

Also, Madrid already tried the "look away and move on" approach on the two previous "referendums", and it just enticed separatists to keep raising their bet.

Sure but a neverendum that has relatively low impact (like 2014) is probably better than all of this.

In fairness personally I've had more or less zero sympathy with Spain since the police's conduct on the day of the vote which I think was an absolute disgrace. But also it seems to me just a little Talleryand-y: worse than a crime, a blunder. I've never been able to see the upside: after a vigorous action by Madrid, the Catalan separatists just decided to jack it all in?

[celedhring]

Sure, but presumably the prosecutors have discretion in this. I agree about the court.

Relatively. Even though having a prosecutor behind a case boosts its chances of making it to trial significantly, any private citizen or organization that can prove standing can bring criminal cases to the court, and in case of secession that was trivial. There were already some in the system when the state prosecutor finally moved in.

Also, there were some rumored dealings (and not rumored, there were witnessess to that effect during the trial) that there were negotiation attempts where Puigdemont would call an election, and the prosecutor would have gone softer, and there wouldn't have been direct rule. He instead made the UDI and fled.

In fairness personally I've had more or less zero sympathy with Spain since the police's conduct on the day of the vote which I think was an absolute disgrace. But also it seems to me just a little Talleryand-y: worse than a crime, a blunder. I've never been able to see the upside: after a vigorous action by Madrid, the Catalan separatists just decided to jack it all in?

I don't know, I was disgusted by it too (you can check my posts from back then if you want) and I still think the Catalan gov aren't the good guys here.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know, I was disgusted by it too (you can check my posts from back then if you want) and I still think the Catalan gov aren't the good guys here.

Same. But I can work out what the Catalan government are trying to achieve.

I can't work out what the Spanish government is trying to achieve, except for help the Catalan government.

Although as I say we're not far away from this happening here. The news tonight had a big section with the SNP at their conference planning their unilateral referendum after Brexit. Though as I say, I do sympathise with their view that Brexit fundamentally alters the picture as does a Johnson government.

[celedhring]

I can't work out what the Spanish government is trying to achieve, except for help the Catalan government.

I think that trying to look for a single-minded purpose in two different branches of the state (judiciary and executive), and an executive that has since then changed hands is going to make it look like that. The Catalan question becoming a fault line in party politics hasn't certainly helped.