The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[DGuller]

Well I don't know the full extent of the charges but generally I am not all that excited about making political martyrs.

No one is, but sometimes you just have to do it.

[chipwich]

The sentences do seem overly long for what was essentially an exercise in political theater.  A peaceful one.

They stole public money to carry out that theater. And are also traitors.

What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for The Mississippi congress declaring the Confederacy independent? Or would that just be theater?

[Rex Francorum]

Well Québec independantists didn't suffer any witchunt, because, well, they have the right to express their desire to leave Canada. Why should it be different elsewhere?

[Admiral Yi]

They stole public money to carry out that theater. And are also traitors.

What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for The Mississippi congress declaring the Confederacy independent? Or would that just be theater?

Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums?   Was Sarah Palin's husband a traitor for being a registered member of the (legal) Alaska Independence Party?

In my mind there's a difference between the theater, the speeches, the proclamations, the flying of independence flags and violence. Lincoln felt it important to wait for the South to fire the first shot.

[celedhring]

And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.

The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law?  They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".

Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".

The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.

[Valmy]

Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums?

The circumstances were just a little different.

[Razgovory]

And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.

The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law?  They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".

Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".

The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.

Does someone in Spain have a pardon power?  The best solution would be to convict them and then immediately pardon them.  This satisfies the requirements of the law, nobody goes to jail over silly bullshit, and the secessionists look very, very small while the government looks magnanimous.

[chipwich]

Well Québec independantists didn't suffer any witchunt, because, well, they have the right to express their desire to leave Canada. Why should it be different elsewhere?

It is illegal in Spain to steal public funds to organize a referendum that the government has no power to organize. Whether Quebec has the power to hold secessionist referendums in the totally different nation of Canada is irrelevant.

[The Larch]

And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.

The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law?  They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".

Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".

The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.

Does someone in Spain have a pardon power?  The best solution would be to convict them and then immediately pardon them.  This satisfies the requirements of the law, nobody goes to jail over silly bullshit, and the secessionists look very, very small while the government looks magnanimous.

The government can, and that has indeed been in the cards as an option to ease things. Of course, it being something that could alleviate tension, the right has been all "Don't you DARE to pardon them" at the government for the last few months. I also believe that some kind of indult is needed to move things forward in a positive direction, but that'd really tense things up on the right.

As cel said, the court was in a really tricky position, having to apply a law that didn't really fit the events (we've had plenty of "what counts as sedition and what as rebellion" arguments in the last few months), in a really tense political atmosphere. At the end of the day the court has to apply the law, it's not there to do politics.

[celedhring]

And separatists over here have the same right. Heck, they hold the Catalan government and yell to everybody every day that same desire. The current incumbents just haven't tried to act on that desire in ways that are against the law.

The court had a difficult job here. They avoided the calls to do them for rebellion (which was ridiculous), and have also refused the demands of the prosecution to make them ineligible for penitentiary benefits, which means most of them are eligible for partial release as soon as next year. Yes, the political fallout was previsibly going to be big, but what was the court supposed to do? Not apply the law?  They even included language in the sentence that amounts to "look, this is a storied problem but our job here is to judge what's in front of us".

Also, let's remember that they already held an illegal referendum in 2014 and nobody went to jail for it. The difference is that they passed laws that made this one binding (including a Catalan proto-constitution that wasn't really that democratic...), and then used the crowds to prevent Madrid from shutting it down, in order to obtain that "mandate".

The worst thing here going forward is that finding any kind of solution is going to need a strong government in Madrid and a Catalan government that's not insane, and we aren't getting either of those things in the short term.

Does someone in Spain have a pardon power?  The best solution would be to convict them and then immediately pardon them.  This satisfies the requirements of the law, nobody goes to jail over silly bullshit, and the secessionists look very, very small while the government looks magnanimous.

The government can, if we had one (acting government can't grant pardons), and strong enough to weather the crisis that would result from it. I am unsure about granting pardons to guys that say that "they will do it again", but I am not opposed to it as part of an overall solution where the guys really really promise that they won't do it again. I don't get a particular kick of them being in jail, but I would rather they don't try to push my land off a cliff again.

They want to acheve independence? Fine, convince enough people to reform the constitution. Right now roughly 25% of Spanish parliament would be in favor. You need 66% but it's something to work with, instead of alienating the people you'd need by calling them fascists and robbers.

[Admiral Yi]

It is illegal in Spain to steal public funds to organize a referendum that the government has no power to organize. Whether Quebec has the power to hold secessionist referendums in the totally different nation of Canada is irrelevant.

You were the one who introduced the cross country comparison.  Spain and US.

[Sheilbh]

John Bercow's really enjoying his last two weeks. He's just announced the jailed politicians are welcome to address our Parliament

[celedhring]

John Bercow's really enjoying his last two weeks. He's just announced the jailed politicians are welcome to address our Parliament

Heh, the same guy that just had to deal with an executive breaking the law using some referendum as an excuse...

[Razgovory]

To be fair, I don't know much about Spanish politics.  I suggested the pardons because it tends to calm things down.  It's also somewhat humiliating to the political leaders who receive them and damages their credibility.

[chipwich]

Were the people of Quebec and Scotland traitors for holding independence referendums?   Was Sarah Palin's husband a traitor for being a registered member of the (legal) Alaska Independence Party?

Quebec and Scotland were allowed by the laws of their countries to hold secession referendums (though based on Wikipedia it's unclear if Quebec had the right to a UDI after the referendum.) Under American law agitating for secession is not illegal.