The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[celedhring]

That's pretty much it. My only hope is that people are so tired about the whole thing that open street conflict remains relatively small-scale/short-lived.

Tomorrow we'll see how many Catalan MPs want to sign up for rebellion charges, too.

If Madrid even allows that. Now the gloves are off.

Does Article 155 suspends parliamentary immunity as well?

If I were the cute hot leader of the Opposition and her caucus, I would make a very symbolic and high-profile gesture now. Something like a big declaration, announcing that they are loyal to the King and to the Spanish state and they leave this illegal, illegitimate Catalan parliament which is adamantly trying to throw Catalonia into chaos.

They need to show Madrid that they are taking no part in this mockery. Staying in Parliament after an UDI, even as (Dis)loyal Opposition, helps to legitimize the whole thing.

The opposition has always left the building whenever the separatists have put any illegal stuff up for vote.

It's gonna be difficut to block the vote. Article 155 will go into effect in the afternoon, and the separatists will try to get the UDI in before that and then claim that Spain no longer has authority.

Regarding immunity, regional MPs have a small degree of parliamentary immunity. They can only be judged by the Spanish Supreme Court, but otherwise there's no need of a special procedure (like it happens with national MPs or members of the national Gov).

[Drakken]

So, what was the main line of the Leader of the Opposition's attack on Puidgemont? She seemed to be trolling him when she had the floor for her speech.

I also heard the Speaker trying to tell her to be silent on the live feed, multiple times.

[celedhring]

So, what was the main line of the Leader of the Opposition's attack on Puidgemont? She seemed to be trolling him when she had the floor for her speech.

I also heard the Speaker trying to tell her to be silent on the live feed, multiple times.

"We want to vote, but a real vote, a legal vote. And you're afraid of it."

EDIT: Manuel Valls liked it https://twitter.com/manuelvalls/status/923589765336838146

[celedhring]

According to the press, the conditions that the Catalan President demanded to call for elections were a) suspension of the intervention of the Catalan autonomy b) Immediate release of the two leaders of the largest separatist NGOs charged with sedition c) suspension of legal proceedings against those involved in the independence process d) retreat of the police reinforcements that Madrid has sent to Catalonia.

b) and c) are unacceptable to me - I mean, separation of powers FFS. They are not even eligible for amnesty until after the actual trial finishes. So I'm fine with Madrid telling them to walk it.

[Iormlund]

Regarding immunity, regional MPs have a small degree of parliamentary immunity. They can only be judged by the Spanish Supreme Court, but otherwise there's no need of a special procedure (like it happens with national MPs or members of the national Gov).

The Catalan High Court can also judge them as well.

[Eddie Teach]

You know, it's kind of a shame we don't have any Catalan separatists on the board for this. 

[Drakken]

They are all on the OT Forum.

[celedhring]

The entire opposition beating down on them today. Great interventions all around. Even the wishy-washy far lefties are laying the smackdown on the separatists (not Podemos though).

And naturally, the Catalan President has refused to take the floor to say his piece. They'll never win the battle where it counts, so they don't even fight it.

[Maladict]

You know, it's kind of a shame we don't have any Catalan separatists on the board for this. 

I have two as facebook 'friends'. They have been very quiet the last few days.

[grumbler]

... the cute hot leader of the Opposition...

  Cute?  Hot?  Look at the points on those elbows!

[Eddie Teach]

So she's a monster in the paint, still hot.

[Admiral Yi]

Not all that keen on the schnozz, which, IMHO, is the cornerstone of prettiness.

[Ed Anger]

That food looks like a pile of old dogshit.

[Oexmelin]

b) and c) are unacceptable to me - I mean, separation of powers FFS. They are not even eligible for amnesty until after the actual trial finishes. So I'm fine with Madrid telling them to walk it.

But isn't that the crux of the matter? Countries generally do not have constitutional provisions for ceasing to exist - especially not countries which have had a history of erasing how their "territorial integrity" came about from the many hiccups of a tumultuous history. So, to reduce the matter to a question of law to be dealt with by the tribunal seems to me to want to reduce a political movement, claiming political legitimacy irreducible to a constitutional order, to be judged by the very constitutional order they renounce.

It would be something if such rejection was done in the name of fascism, or nazism - but here, it was rooted in claims of popular sovereignty tied to the question of a vote. Once Madrid absolutely refused to make it a political process, and sought the foreordained conclusions of the courts, sought to repress a referendum, what would have been the correct course of action? What is the correct course of action now?

The question at the heart of the matter is this: what would it take for a Catalan independence movement to be deemed legitimate by Madrid. If, at any given moment, the only possible answer is "nothing", then one shouldn't be surprised to see Catalans seeking political legitimacy in any way they can. And so far, it does seem that the only thing Madrid has answered is "nothing".

[Valmy]

But isn't that the crux of the matter? Countries generally do not have constitutional provisions for ceasing to exist - especially not countries which have had a history of erasing how their "territorial integrity" came about from the many hiccups of a tumultuous history. So, to reduce the matter to a question of law to be dealt with by the tribunal seems to me to want to reduce a political movement, claiming political legitimacy irreducible to a constitutional order, to be judged by the very constitutional order they renounce.

The problem is the separatist movement itself rather than the legal technicalities. Again the issue is they would have a point if:

#1 they had a legitimate grievance against Spain for abusing their rights. They do not. Well ok they do but ones from 40 years ago.

#2 they had an overwhelming majority of the local population on their side. They do not. They are facing strong opposition from 40+% of their own population.

The question at the heart of the matter is this: what would it take for a Catalan independence movement to be deemed legitimate by Madrid.

Does it really matter if there is no clear majority declaring it legitimate in Catalonia itself? The separatists are trying to play political games here and try to trick people they failed to convince by trying to provoke Madrid to doing something oppressive. It is dishonest and bad for the people of Catalonia, but the Separatists clearly do not care about them since not having a firm popular mandate does not seem to bother them. They are going to provoke a crisis and then bully their opponents by calling them traitors.

An independence movement needs more than 50.000001% of the people lukewarm enough to vote for a party that is for it to some extent. And the separatists did not even get that. They have no legitimacy to make this step, IMO.