The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[CountDeMoney]

So UDI it is, tomorrow after lunch time civil war starts in Catalonia.

I thought siesta was after lunch time. So the civil war would be, what, 5ish?

[Oexmelin]

they had a legitimate grievance against Spain for abusing their rights. They do not. Well ok they do but ones from 40 years ago.

Nations are not simply built on legitimate grievances, if only because one person's legitimate grievance is another person's trifle. There were many in 1776 who thought, not without reason, that the 13 Colonies were complaining unduly. People who oppose independence movements generally tend to cast such movement as baseless,  no?

2 they had an overwhelming majority of the local population on their side. They do not. They are facing strong opposition from 40+% of their own population.

Again, either numbers mean something, or they don't. If we are only deeming legitimate movements which can rely on « overwhelming majorities », then very few movement would ever be legitimate, and a case can be made about the legitimacy of ordinary government. And if support is weak (and I believe it is), a referendum would have shown the weakness of that support. Rather, Madrid did not even want to concede a shred of legitimacy from the beginning of the process. It upped the ante considerably.

[Iormlund]

Oex the alternative is to convince the rest of the country, so we all vote to change the Constitution. This would also make getting into the EU possible.
Of course that is pretty hard to do when you sound like a whiny child talking non-stop about how you are being repressed and robbed by the ones whose support you need.

[celedhring]

I'm going to spend the whole weekend curled in fetal position while my world goes up in flames, in case you don't see me posting much.

[celedhring]

Oex the alternative is to convince the rest of the country, so we all vote to change the Constitution. This would also make getting into the EU possible.
Of course that is pretty hard to do when you sound like a whiny child talking non-stop about how you are being repressed and robbed by the ones whose support you need.

And you call non-separatist Catalans "fascists" or "botiflers" (the Catalan equivalent of "Quisling") non-stop. Or just plain deny they even exist, calling yourselves "One People" (really, don't they realize how scary that sounds?)

Historical tidbit: a "botifler" was a Catalan that supported the Napoleonic side in the Peninsular War.

[celedhring]

Regarding whether separatism is legitimate or ilegitimate. To me, all discussion on how we should organize our states is valid, but if you want to flout the law you have to make a damn good case for it. 48% of the voting public isn't a mandate for flouting the law - heck it isn't enough to reform the Catalan Statute which demands a supermajority. We are in a democratic society, so the expression of separatist ideas isn't banned or impeded in any way. So if you haven't convinced enough people, then your case is probably not as good as you think.

Regarding the idea of Catalan secession in abstract, and removing all emotional context from it (I actually give two fucks about the "Spanish Nation" too). To me, the mission of the state is to give the framework where its citizens can prosper and live good lives. We won't agree on the better means to achieve that goal - and that's why we have political parties - but secession won't be conducive to better lives for Catalans, in fact it will impoverish us and sow conflict. Out of the EU, our largest companies leaving the region, etc... it's a pointless endeavour. It's Brexit but to the nth degree and without being an actual economic powerhouse like UK.

[celedhring]

The separatists have formally registered the UDI in Parliament. It will be voted on in a few hours.

[Duque de Bragança]

Historical tidbit: a "botifler" was a Catalan that supported the Napoleonic side in the Peninsular War.

I would hate to think what their opinion is about those who supported the Bourbons in the Spanish Succession War, the first Peninsular War. 
There has to be a significant number, it's not like Catalans were fighting at Almansa.

[Josquius]

So.... A...... Friend..... Has been told they might have to spend a significant amount of time in Barcelona in the new year for work.
This increasingly seems to be not quite the good news it seemed.
Possibility of them having to demand danger pay in the way people sent to the middle east and the like do?

Sad to see sanity is not prevailing. They should all be working towards having a proper official referendum

[Eddie Teach]

This... friend... should ask himself, What would George Orwell do?

[Tonitrus]

The friend probably would rather not be shot in the throat.

[Tamas]

I think there will be a short period of intense protesters vs. riot police action, the police will clean the streets, mostly by sliding women and elderly on their faces back to their homes.

Then of course will be months if not years of increased police presence, lots of political angst, and local economic recession, but otherwise there won't be a a Northern Ireland/Gaza Strip situation.

[celedhring]

I think there will be a short period of intense protesters vs. riot police action, the police will clean the streets, mostly by sliding women and elderly on their faces back to their homes.

Then of course will be months if not years of increased police presence, lots of political angst, and local economic recession, but otherwise there won't be a a Northern Ireland/Gaza Strip situation.

That's my prediction. Most violence should happen in the next few days/weeks. Tyr's friend should have nothing to fear.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm going to spend the whole weekend curled in fetal position while my world goes up in flames, in case you don't see me posting much.

Any chance of living solvently in the Balearic Islands, by chance?

[Grey Fox]

Do it, Trudeau, do it. Recognize it!