The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Malthus]

What would Quebecois soldiers in the Forces do should the 'Yes' win was certainly a question raised during the 1995 referendum.

Missed this bit. How come? Since the Quebec referendum was a lawful one, why would the army had to play any part?

I don't remember any debate - I assume the only issue in the event of a Yes vote would be whether they would choose to remain in the federal Canadian army, or join a new Quebec national army.

[Drakken]

Missed this bit. How come? Since the Quebec referendum was a lawful one, why would the army had to play any part?

Malthus is right, but there was also a fear that the Canadian government might not recognize the Yes result if it won, since Ottawa argued that the question on the referendum was made purposefully unclear and, thus, illegitimate if not illegal. They could argue - and they did - that the Quebecois were being misled like a pied piper by the Yes campaign, and inferred they might not accept a mere majority of 50%+1.

Remember, the question in 1995 was not whether we separate or not, but on "becoming sovereign, while maintaining an economic and legal partnership with Canada." The question was long to the point of being absurd; it was basically asking to separate and remain part of Canada.

Do you agree that Québec should become sovereign, after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership, within the scope of the Bill respecting the future of Québec and of the agreement signed on 12 June 1995?

Also, there were groups like the Cree Nation and some fringe "angryphone" groups, like Robert Libman's "Equality Party", that argued in favor of partitioning Quebec during the campaign - that if Canada was divisible, so was Quebec.

We now know that the Canadian government was in a state of utter panic when the polls showed that the Yes side was trending a majority. They just expected to win by default and they became desperate when the Yes was in the lead, hence why they decided to cheat the system and use federal money to fund the "love-in" demonstration right before the vote, and use expediencies like fast-tracking grants of citizenships for new immigrants (with the expectation they would vote No).

They became so paranoid after that near-defear, that the Chrétien government invested vast sums of taxpayers' money to promote Canada at every avenue possible - and they subcontracted that to communication firms belonging to their Liberal friends, who obviously overbilled the government to pocket the money. This was the seed of the "Sponsorship Scandal" which sunk the Liberal Party of Canada for over a decade - and threatened even its very existence as a party until Justin Trudeau took the helm.

The position of their own Quebec MPs in parliament was put into jeopardy, should the Yes won. There were talks in the Opposition to put a motion of no-confidence and that the government resigns if it were the case since Jean Chrétien and a good chunk of the Cabinet and government caucus were composed of Quebecois.

[Valmy]

We now know that the Canadian government was in a state of utter panic when the polls showed that the Yes side was trending a majority. They just expected to win by default and they became desperate when the Yes was in the lead, hence why they decided to cheat the system and use federal money to fund the "love-in" demonstration right before the vote, and use expediencies like fast-tracking grants of citizenships for new immigrants (with the expectation they would vote No).

I just have a hard time believing stuff like this. Politicians are famously super paranoid and neurotic about every vote to the point they even cheat when they have double digit leads. The idea that any of them would expect to win by default strikes me as unlikely.

[Drakken]

I just have a hard time believing stuff like this. Politicians are famously super paranoid and neurotic about every vote to the point they even cheat when they have double digit leads. The idea that any of them would expect to win by default strikes me as unlikely.

Were you there? I was 15 during that campaign and remember it very well. When the Yes started to trend up, the whole thing snowballed and spiralled out of control.

Not only that, all the major players on both sides talked openly about it to biographers a few years ago. The major No players in Ottawa, Chrétien first, candidly admitted that they had no expectation that the Yes had a chance to win, until it began to actually win right after Bouchard took control of the campaign. Then, they were thrown in utter confusion and they improvised: They actually had no plan for a Yes victory.

They expected it to be 1980 all over again. And at the beginning of the campaign, they were right. Yes support was really low and the campaign was not jumping under Parizeau's leadership. While everybody recognized his status as a statemen, he was an economist, a hard-liner who made no secret that what he wanted was secession, and lacked the charisma to sell the project.

It's when Lucien Bouchard joined the campaign and took the de-facto Yes leadership that the Yes started to trend, then lead in the polls. Because they joined hands with disappointed, young federalists, represented by Mario Dumont's ADQ, and opened the door to a negociated settlement the like of what was submitted in the question.

[Valmy]

Were you there? I was 15 during that campaign and remember it very well.

Well yes and no. Mostly no

I was in College at the time. We had a couple Quebec students come to my French class to explain the referendum to us in entry level French. I remember their faces the day after the results were announced, most funerals were more cheery.

[Tamas]

1 hour delay. Still in time for watching the rioting before sleep, though.


What a mess.

[celedhring]

They say he's talking with "international mediators". I guess somebody big is trying to talk him down before it's too late.

[Drakken]

They say he's talking with "international mediators". I guess somebody big is trying to talk him down before it's too late.

I sure hope he is not talking with Putin or *gasp* Trump.

Rajoy has already made it clear he wouldn't deal with mediators. It's either Puidgemont backing down now, or UDI.

[celedhring]

There's also talk from insiders that the moderates and the radicals are clashing on whether have a proper UDI or one that would be "timed" and not have an immediate effect.

Oh please please please do a GOP

[Drakken]

There's also talk from insiders that the moderates and the radicals are clashing on whether have a proper UDI or one that would be "timed" and not have an immediate effect.

LOL

Sorry celed, but what a bunch of idiots they are. They really think Rajoy would accept a "timed" UDI, now?

[celedhring]

There's also talk from insiders that the moderates and the radicals are clashing on whether have a proper UDI or one that would be "timed" and not have an immediate effect.

LOL

Sorry celed, but what a bunch of idiots they are. They really think Rajoy would accept a "timed" UDI, now?

The whole plan is having gigantic clashes between police and crowds to force international intervention in their favor. The trick is to look like "appeasers" issuing an UDI but then freezing it "if Madrid agrees to negotiate".

EDIT: Looks like it's gonna start now.

[Drakken]

The whole plan is having gigantic clashes between police and crowds to force international intervention. Their trick is to look like "appeasers" issuing an UDI but then freezing it "if Madrid agrees to negotiate".

That's the whole problem. If we know their plan, the Spaniards know it too.

[Drakken]

EDIT: Looks like it's gonna start now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg92QpjRcJk

[Drakken]

For those who want to watch the end of Catalonia as we know it live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVqpJ7m-AaA

[Drakken]

They are going for it. UDI. Just from the start of his speech, I can feel it.

He is purposefully making not any mention of Spain at all.