The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Duque de Bragança]

I still ask the same question: if independence happens, Barcelona football club will play who in the league competition? 

According to Catalonian-born Manuel Valls, former prime minister of France, in the French league. 

[celedhring]

The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any single constituent unit.

This is funny beyond belief: No Constitution recognizes a right to self-determination. Doesn't make secession any less of a reality if a majority of a population in a given constituent unit wants it.

That would be the case... if the separatists weren't creating a Constitutional crisis on the back of a popular vote loss in the last regional election (while they retained a majority in parliament because yay electoral law).

If they wanted this, they should have tried to convince the rest of us and build up a real majority for the referendum instead of trying to sneak it through parliament with disregard to the law of the land. There's also the fact that they held a vote in 2015 where less than 30% of the electoral census voted "yes" to independence.

[Iormlund]

Personally I would agree to a referendum if it had built-in safeguards for those displaced as a result and it was done at a local district level (after which the borders would be drawn).

Just like with Brexit, the richest parts of Catalonia (Greater Barcelona and northern Tarragona) are the least likely to vote for secession. Which is ironic considering that the main argument for independence is that Catalonia sends away more money than it gets back.

[The Minsky Moment]

What the hell is wrong with people?

I think the answer was posted earlier.

Meh.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to money, and unlike Basques Catalonian politicians have no real control over taxes (which is why they've orchestrated this charade).

Looks like brinksmanship to press for a better autonomy deal.

[celedhring]

That's how it all started - in 2012 the Catalan regional government petitioned for a new tax regime and it was rebuked by the Spanish gov, and the nationalist parties began pushing for independence. However, since then the leaders of the nationalist movement have been replaced by very ideological true believers, and more radical parties (like CUP) have come to the fore. It might be a "Guns of August" situation, where each other side rises the ante expecting the others to blink first, only to reach a point of no return. I'm not sure we are at a point where reconciliation can be reached.

[HVC]

I know the historical precedence for the separatist movement for the basque, but what's the deal with the movement in Catalonia? The general populous that is, not the politicians.

[The Minsky Moment]

Generalitat

[Valmy]

I know the historical precedence for the separatist movement for the basque, but what's the deal with the movement in Catalonia? The general populous that is, not the politicians.

I always thought the Catalans are great poster children for annoying Euro-nationalists. They are not particularly oppressed currently but have a long list of grievances that stretch back centuries against numerous oppressors that often have nothing at all to do with nationality. Their big national day is the siege of Barcelona, and the resulting defeat of the pro-Habsburg forces, by the Bourbons. Because being strong supporters of nationalism is what the Habsburgs were all about don't you know.

And that is another annoying quality: your big national holiday being a military defeat. Obnoxious.

But I am sure it makes more sense to celedhring who lives there.

[The Larch]

I know the historical precedence for the separatist movement for the basque, but what's the deal with the movement in Catalonia? The general populous that is, not the politicians.

It has a strong streak of "rich people's kind of separatism", with the "we're rich so why should we support the rest of the country, bunch of moochers", coupled with one of the whiniest and more victimistic attitudes you can imagine. And I say that as a person who is in the "support for decentralisation" side of the slider, so to speak.

[Valmy]

coupled with one of the whiniest and more victimistic attitudes you can imagine.

Ah. So see sometimes ones view from far away can be accurate

[Iormlund]

Pretty much every region in Spain has a nationalist party. That's how we roll.

It all comes back to the old EU centralization slider. Like in most other European monarchies, the King would grab whatever opportunity presented itself to increase his power at the nobles' cost. Local or regional bodies known as Cortes and privileges known as Fueros were an obstacle to this absolutist desires.

Aragón, for example, lost theirs when the Justice harbored Phillipe II's disgraced secretary. Catalonia, after joining the Austrian side during the War of Succession that the Bourbonists won. Basques and Navarres have managed to keep theirs, despite all odds. That's why they are the only ones that have an independent tax authority.

[Valmy]

Hey I am all for federal governments, I naturally think those are the best since I live in one.

Catalonia seems especially obnoxious though.

[The Larch]

Spain is basically a federal country in all but name, our regions have way more powers than many other countries' regions. Making this plain and obvious in the constitution seems to be taboo, though.

[celedhring]

There's been periods of cultural suppression against Catalans, that can't be denied (and no, we haven't been the only ones oppressed, Spain has been a very sucky place for Spaniards throughout history). My mother can't write in Catalan because schools were forbidden to teach it, she officially has a Spanish name because the registrar wouldn't register a Catalan name when she was born. She is intensely separatist as a result. But that oppression finished... 40 years ago? Even asshole civil registrars have died out by this time. Spain's fine (not perfect) now. But nationalists feed on that resentment and pass it down. The whines are unbearable, it's like Generalissimo Franco (who's still dead) personally rakes them on coals every fucking night or something.

[Iormlund]

This reminds me that I have tickets for the train tomorrow. Maybe I should grab the passport just in case.