Placebo Effect: Dieting is all in your head

[crazy canuck]

I understand people with a mental illness not being able to cure their mental illness.  I am not so convinced that being fat is akin to having a mental illness unless one equates eating too much a kind of addiction.  I suppose that might be the case for some people.  But given the expansion of waist lines in North America I think it more likely it has more to do with life style.

Not an illness, but not a simple cure either - even though everyone knows what the cure is (eat less, exercise more).

While depression is classified as a mental illness, 'situational' depression isn't simply a chemical imbalance - more like a bad cycle of behaviors and thoughts.

The "cure" in both cases is indeed a mental one. It is similar to the "cure" for smoking (which is of course to ... stop smoking).

All three (overeating, smoking, depression) are similar to each other in this way - that how to stop the problem is, on the surface "obvious", but in practice some find it hard to do. In all three cases, those without those particular problems often have scant sympathy - the solution is so obvious, so why the overweight, smoking or chronically sad person can't just successfully pull themselves out of it by a simple exercise of willpower must be because they are weak.

You are again equating over eating to an addiction (smoking) or a mental illness (depression) and then you say they are similar because it they are hard to "cure".  I grant you that addictions and mental illness are difficult to cure.  I also grant you that some people are fat because they suffer from addictions or mental illness or both.  But why do you think that all people who are fat will have the same difficulty exercising or eating less as a person who suffers from an addiction or a mental illness?

I understand people with a mental illness not being able to cure their mental illness.  I am not so convinced that being fat is akin to having a mental illness unless one equates eating too much a kind of addiction.  I suppose that might be the case for some people.  But given the expansion of waist lines in North America I think it more likely it has more to do with life style.

I think that lifestyle is one way of framing it, but if we are looking at it as as social phenomenon I think food infrastructure and other social structures are more relevant things to consider.

If the observation is "look at how North Americans have gotten way fatter" then "it's the lifestyle" is not an explanation but simply a restating of the observation - North American lifestyles exist in a very different context now than in the past. So what are the things that affect the North American lifestyle that results in the expanding waistline?

If we approach any given individual case - so-and-so is really fat because of their lifestyle - the answer there (assuming they want to lose weight) is how can that individual restructure their lifestyle such that they lose weight, which once again touches on the social structures that inform said lifestyle.

Sure. I am not sure you are disagreeing with me.  The preponderance of poor food choices makes it much easier to have a poor lifestyle.  Just as the sedentary work most of us do (not to mention the sedentary leisure time on top of that) exacerbates the problem.  But I am not sure why all of that isn't a question of lifestyle rather than the addiction/mental illness paradigm Malthus was using.

Is it harder to be fit now than before.  Perhaps.  But for most it is a choice being made - step away from the screen and get some exercise and also eat less.  Not that complicated.  But it might be a hard lifestyle change for people to make.

[Jacob]

Sure. I am not sure you are disagreeing with me.  The preponderance of poor food choices makes it much easier to have a poor lifestyle.  Just as the sedentary work most of us do (not to mention the sedentary leisure time on top of that) exacerbates the problem.  But I am not sure why all of that isn't a question of lifestyle rather than the addiction/mental illness paradigm Malthus was using.

Is it harder to be fit now than before.  Perhaps.  But for most it is a choice being made - step away from the screen and get some exercise and also eat less.  Not that complicated.  But it might be a hard lifestyle change for people to make.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you either

I think the underlying dynamic is that maintaining a healthy weight is now a question of lifestyle.

At one point in time, not too distant, almost everyone got more physical activity than they do now merely by virtue of living their daily life. For many, hard or medium physical labour was ever present. Similarly, while the diet of most people were not necessarily strictly healthy by modern standards easy access to multiples of daily necessary calories were limited by distribution, social pressure, and economics.

Today for a large majority of people exercise is an additional activity that requires resources - some combination of free time and money and focus beyond the needs of day to day experience. Similarly, the path of least resistance - economically and in terms of commitment - tends towards over-consumption of calories. Eating relatively healthy requires a combination of additional effort, knowledge, and money compared to eating unhealthy.

On an individual case will power and lifestyle changes can make people healthier, sure. Systemically, however, the population is not set up for success.

Basically, I don't think it's some sort of decrease in the population's willpower or desire to be healthy that's behind the ever increasing waistlines in the West. Those things are pretty constant, I reckon. Rather economic and social conditions have changed such that it takes more willpower and desire to be healthy to maintain bodyweights that were previously default.

[viper37]

But given the expansion of waist lines in North America I think it more likely it has more to do with life style.

partly true.

often, something happens.  you stop exercising.  or you never started and were obese at 4yo because your parents thought it was cool.  and you eat.  not a lot, but just like you're used too.  and you start gaining weight.  and you know you need to cut on your drinking too, but damn, that beer, outside, when it's 30C, it feels good.

then you take weight and you try gym, but you simply hurt yourself.  or you start working just a little too much because you need money to pay for the gym you don't go to anymore.  so you take even more weight.  and then you have an accident or you get sick, and no one can really fix you, so sports isn't an option.

so you gain more weight.  and you start cutting on your calories.  but then, no one told you calories isn't the end all.  you eat and drink food without calories (diet coke, diet lemonade), but you still gain weight.  you don't eat desert but you gain weight.  you don't drink anymore but you gain weight.  you eat less than the nutrionist you see, but you aren't losing weight.

No, it's not that easy losing weight.  It requires both a constant healthy diet and intense exercising.  it's not just about calories, it's about drinking water and nothing else, it's about having 100g of meat and veggies, it's about finding the right stuff that fits with you (no allergies, no stomach pains, sufficient protein for you daily routine, etc).

And that's fucking stuff.  People who have studies in this field are themselves lost and they often give contradictory advices.

[The Brain]

No, it's not that easy losing weight.  It requires both a constant healthy diet and intense exercising.  it's not just about calories, it's about drinking water and nothing else, it's about having 100g of meat and veggies, it's about finding the right stuff that fits with you (no allergies, no stomach pains, sufficient protein for you daily routine, etc).

wut

[DGuller]

I'm always confused by the "doing X is easy if you truly want to" arguments.  They strike me as self-contradictory.  Wants are not easy, you have little control over what you want to do, wants are imposed on you.

It's like saying that math is easy if you're supremely intelligent.  Yes, I can confirm that it is easy in that case, but that's not a very useful statement to those who are struggling with math.

[11B4V]

No, it's not that easy losing weight.  It requires both a constant healthy diet and intense exercising.  it's not just about calories, it's about drinking water and nothing else, it's about having 100g of meat and veggies, it's about finding the right stuff that fits with you (no allergies, no stomach pains, sufficient protein for you daily routine, etc).

wut

Oy vey

[mongers]

I'm always confused by the "doing X is easy if you truly want to" arguments.  They strike me as self-contradictory.  Wants are not easy, you have little control over what you want to do, wants are imposed on you.

It's like saying that math is easy if you're supremely intelligent.  Yes, I can confirm that it is easy in that case, but that's not a very useful statement to those who are struggling with math.

You can level with us, you're a porker aren't you? 

[11B4V]

Diet soft drinks are suit too.

[The Brain]

I'm always confused by the "doing X is easy if you truly want to" arguments.  They strike me as self-contradictory.  Wants are not easy, you have little control over what you want to do, wants are imposed on you.

It's like saying that math is easy if you're supremely intelligent.  Yes, I can confirm that it is easy in that case, but that's not a very useful statement to those who are struggling with math.

I don't get it. What does control of wants have to do with it?

It's OK to be fat and not thinking that losing weight is worth the effort. If you don't want to lose weight then it's not a problem.

I don't understand what people think is great about telling fatties that the fate of their fat is not in their greasy little hands. Mine is a message of hope! You don't have to wait for sugar bans or changes to society or whatever. You can just lose your fat, should you want to. Because you are an adult, and if I respect you then I don't assume that you can't handle simple things. And if you don't think the effort to lose weight is worth it, then that's fine too. I don't hate fat people. Some of my best friends are fat.

[Eddie Teach]

Everybody *wants* to be thin and healthy, but that desire doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[The Brain]

Everybody *wants* to be thin and healthy, but that desire doesn't exist in a vacuum.

No they don't.

I think it would be super nice to know Japanese, but that doesn't mean I want to learn it.

[Eddie Teach]

I don't want to work. Doesn't mean I don't want money.

[The Brain]

I don't think we will ever agree on this.

[crazy canuck]

I'm always confused by the "doing X is easy if you truly want to" arguments.  They strike me as self-contradictory.  Wants are not easy, you have little control over what you want to do, wants are imposed on you.

It's like saying that math is easy if you're supremely intelligent.  Yes, I can confirm that it is easy in that case, but that's not a very useful statement to those who are struggling with math.

What you want is imposed on you?  You are not in Russia anymore 

[11B4V]

This is both a strange and interesting thread.