Great Story from Iran

[Sheilbh]

Come on Iran has religious government militias beating people and shooting at them. For example, post-'56 Hungary also had its Workers Guard specifically formed to fight enemies of the system but the rulers never dared to actually use them on the street.
Iran is worse than most of the eastern bloc was, from what I see

Okay.  The death toll has been very low, from what we can gather.  The militias are beating people but there's been relatively little shooting.  So far this is less violent than the Prague Spring or even the Romanian revolution and I imagine Hungary in 1956.

In terms of freedom generally the Iranian state is differently set up than the Eastern bloc but, for example, there is more freedom of speech and assembly, there are genuine open-ish debates.  Or, at least, there were until charitably a month ago, more fully about 5 years ago.  Iran has several openly reformist newspapers for example that deviate from the regime's line with relative regularity and with relative regularity they are closed down. 

The Iranian system has always tried to fuse theocracy with democracy.  Iran has a relatively strong republican tradition and generally their elections, by the stage of voting, have been free and fair.  Candidates the regime couldn't work with were removed before they got near a ballot paper which is what makes this all so odd.  Neil is just wrong when he says everyone expected the vote to be rigged; they didn't.  Elections in Iran have historically been rigged before the vote took place and it's surprising that the Iranian regime chose to sacrifice their legitimacy, given that Khomeini's system was designed with the idea that authority stems from God but accountability from the people.

Iran's always allowed limited freedoms to let people blow-off steam so that something like this wouldn't happen.  The reason people are protesting is because the election rigging seems symptomatic of a move from Iran's previous unusual system of government to something that more completely resembles the Eastern bloc style.

Ultimately when did the Eastern bloc ever hold a competitive election?  When did the candidates debate and different groups, with different opinions hold rallies?  Could, in the Eastern bloc, '3000 exemplary women' sign a petition against the analog to Ahmedinejad?

Don't get me wrong Iran's not free by any stretch of the imagination.  Its dictatorship has hitherto been buttressed by limited arenas of freedom (a limited free press, a restricted free vote) but it's not as oppressive as say China or the Eastern bloc.  The protests are happening because it now looks like it's moving in that direction.

Don't a lot of Arabs have messed up double standards with western women though?- at the extreme "they're probably already unclean so its fine to rape them!"

Well this is somewhat true.  Having said that the German girl I met said that's true, but it sounded to me like a shame culture.  She said a guy had pinched her arse in Marrakesh I think and she turned round to him and started saying 'have you no shame, haven't you a mother and sisters, a wife?'  That sort of thing.  The crowd turned on the guy, women shouted abuse at him, men told him to get out and he basically had to leave.  The market seller near her then offered her, very respectfully, some pastries and tea and apologised to her saying that the other man was no true Muslim, no true Moroccan and so on.

It's worth pointing out, though that she dressed 'respectfully' so the crowd may have been more sympathetic on that point.  I mean she was more conservative in dress than half the Moroccan women I saw in Casablanca.

[Josquius]

Saddam won 99% of the vote without riots and whatnot.  Saddam's Iraq was apparently a better democracy than Iran.

Well this is somewhat true.  Having said that the German girl I met said that's true, but it sounded to me like a shame culture.  She said a guy had pinched her arse in Marrakesh I think and she turned round to him and started saying 'have you no shame, haven't you a mother and sisters, a wife?'  That sort of thing.  The crowd turned on the guy, women shouted abuse at him, men told him to get out and he basically had to leave.  The market seller near her then offered her, very respectfully, some pastries and tea and apologised to her saying that the other man was no true Muslim, no true Moroccan and so on.

It's worth pointing out, though that she dressed 'respectfully' so the crowd may have been more sympathetic on that point.  I mean she was more conservative in dress than half the Moroccan women I saw in Casablanca.

Sounds like a funny situation.

[crazy canuck]

Not sure what is good about this.  If true, she convinced security forces to disobey their orders by appealing to religious authority.

Isnt the real problem in Iran that it is ruled by religious authority?

[Sheilbh]

Not sure what is good about this.  If true, she convinced security forces to disobey their orders by appealing to religious authority.

The interesting point in the wider context is the stuff about the militia getting three times normal pay and being outside of Tehran.  If that's true it's telling.

The reason I liked the story is because it's someone's mum yelling at people doing bad stuff.  It's like stories about nans fighting off muggers.  That's all.

Isnt the real problem in Iran that it is ruled by religious authority?

Not necessarily.  Look Iran's a religious society, all of the Middle East is a religious society and religion pervades the culture.  You know the response to 'when does the train leave?' is 'four thirty, God willing'.  When you're asked how you are the standard response is fine or good, or whatever 'glory be to God'.  If you're not well then there's a saying 'praise be to God, who alone is praised in adversity'.  The Middle East is just a lot more religious and that religion has permeated into every bit of the culture and language.

I'd argue the religious authority is what makes this revolt so interesting.  If this were a bunch of students who wanted a secularist liberal state it would be crushed, because it would be alien to the culture, which may well develop into a liking for a secularist liberal state.  What makes this revolt threatening is that it's lead by people whose revolutionary, republican and Islamic credentials are almost impossible to question.  That's why they've appropriated the religious slogans of 1979.  It's very difficult for a religious state to shoot down protestors shouting 'Allah o akbar'.

I think Iran's problem is that it's dictatorial, not that it's theocratic.  If Yazdi became Supreme Leader, then the problem would be religion.  I also suspect that even if Iran were to emerge as a secular, liberal democracy that Khomeini and Mossadeq would still be put in a very high mythologised position as sort of 'fathers of the nation' because they were Iranian nationalists and Khomeini overthrew the Shah.

[Josquius]

The most liberal democratic I see Iran getting in the foreseeable future is the religious leaders being reduced to the Iranian equivalent of the British monarchy- technically still supreme leader and all that but not actually exercising that power.
This isn't going to happen with the current unrest though of course. Just a best case. I'd agree that it must stay a Islamic Republic.

Urban Iran is secularising very much, the vast majority of Iranians I meet are irreligious. Iran is also becoming increasingly urban; which bodes well for the future. For the time being though the conservative elements in the countryside still hold a lot of power, they got Ahmajinedad in and they look set to keep him there.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The world expected the election to be rigged, as it in fact was.  The reason that the current events are a big deal is because the supporters of the candidates were fighting it out in the streets.  Only naive, anti-Western morons like yourself think that Iran behaves in a manner that would be considered 'democratically'.  The standards of democracy are a bit higher than that.

Its a stretch to call them a democracy on a par with the west given that the candidates have to be OKed before they can run and the powers of the Supreme Leader and all that but once the election is under way they do indeed behave democratically. Only naiive, racist morons think that Iran behaves in a manner that would be considered a totalitarian dictatorship.
You shouldn't overlook that Ahmajinedad's very getting into power in the first place was a complete fluke that came about due to democracy.

it's not the way the elections are run in Iran that makes it not a democracy, though it's a part of the issue.
It's the fact that they have a 'supreme leader' above everything who (theoretically, and often practically) has the power to issue edicts as he pleases, all by way of that velayet doctrine.
In other words: just having elections does not make countries democratic, just like putting a jacket on a monkey doesn't make it into a stockbroker (though there's doubts there)

[Siege]

Iran is not Hungary.

Indeed.  It's much worse.  At least the Hungarians, although barbaric, have the seeds of civilization in them.

Hungarians had a viable civilization long before your irish forefathers learnt how to read and write. And they had to put up with the Ottoman Empire.

I'm not Irish.

That's what you think.

[Valmy]

Hungarians had a viable civilization long before your irish forefathers learnt how to read and write.

So they had a viable civilization long before 1950?

[Josquius]

it's not the way the elections are run in Iran that makes it not a democracy, though it's a part of the issue.
It's the fact that they have a 'supreme leader' above everything who (theoretically, and often practically) has the power to issue edicts as he pleases, all by way of that velayet doctrine.
In other words: just having elections does not make countries democratic, just like putting a jacket on a monkey doesn't make it into a stockbroker (though there's doubts there)

I said as much. It was only Neil who called them a democracy.
All I said was that once the elections are up and running they are usually handled democratically.
It's not a democracy and any suggestion of that is just wrong. But nor is it a out and out authoritarian dictatorship. Discussing it as if it is one or the other is a wrong way of doing things, its a unique nation with a strange semi-democratic, theocratic government (or governments some would say).

[Crazy_Ivan80]

it's not the way the elections are run in Iran that makes it not a democracy, though it's a part of the issue.
It's the fact that they have a 'supreme leader' above everything who (theoretically, and often practically) has the power to issue edicts as he pleases, all by way of that velayet doctrine.
In other words: just having elections does not make countries democratic, just like putting a jacket on a monkey doesn't make it into a stockbroker (though there's doubts there)

I said as much. It was only Neil who called them a democracy.
All I said was that once the elections are up and running they are usually handled democratically.
It's not a democracy and any suggestion of that is just wrong. But nor is it a out and out authoritarian dictatorship. Discussing it as if it is one or the other is a wrong way of doing things, its a unique nation with a strange semi-democratic, theocratic government (or governments some would say).

sometimes letters start to dance on their own.
I said nothing then :p

[Queequeg]

Looks like the Riots are starting again.   This is what Khamenei will have to deal with now; random, hugely popular riots.

[Eddie Teach]

but once the election is under way they do indeed behave democratically.

It's been a while since rioters and armed thugs were out contesting the vote in most democracies.

Jaron & Katmai are offended. 

[garbon]

Jaron & Katmai are offended. 

I'm offended by your face.

[Jaron]

Neil is as Jewish as they come.

[Jaron]

but once the election is under way they do indeed behave democratically.

It's been a while since rioters and armed thugs were out contesting the vote in most democracies.

Jaron & Katmai are offended. 

Since when do our people riot?