Western values and Islam are very, very compatible

[Berkut]

But beyond that again I reject this absurd reductionist argument that all religions are exactly the same and Christianity and Islam have the exact same problems in today's world.

Not the exact same problems.  Similar problems.  Lots of Christians don't seem to accept what we call "liberal" values.  It seems more important to adhere to biblical values, however they may be interpreted, than anything else.  If that means trampling people's right in the dirt, be it as insignificant as the right to watch pornography at home, or more sinisted as affecting equality for people of different sexual orientation or preventing a women to control her own body, or simply waging an incessant war on science when it contradicts the Bible, it seems to me Christianity has a lot of problems.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

Attacking a religion is simply counter-productive.  Just look at your reaction here, at the slightest mention of what could be a criticism or your religion, and you're as far as I can possibly imagine from a religious fanatic.
Using that technique on devout people is likely to backfire, creating the opposite effect than what we want to achieve.

Pretending that something that is obviously not true is in fact true because it makes us feel better, or we imagine that it will be seen as more "tolerant", has it's own negative repercussions.

Cue: Donald Trump.

What actual beliefs ARE and what behaviors they drive does in fact actually matter.

[The Brain]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

It's very true.  Getting your head hacked off is much more unpleasant than paying a porn tax or not being able to buy booze on Sunday.

Hearsay, and highly dubious hearsay at that.

[Berkut]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

It's very true.  Getting your head hacked off is much more unpleasant than paying a porn tax or not being able to buy booze on Sunday.

The entire argument that all religions are the same that is trotted out every single time this discussion comes up is just so silly.

A religion is just a label we place on a set of beliefs. The argument that the actual content of those beliefs doesn't matter when it comes to thinking about how the followers of that religion are likely to behave is so reductively absurd that it feels petty to even point it out.

I can posit a religion A with one belief:

"God demands that you eradicate cats from the earth!"

And another B with another belief:

"God demands that you take excellent care of all puppies!".

Now, we could easily imagine religious followings that take those core beliefs and interpret them in a lot of different ways. Some could take them literally, others could argue that puppies are an allegory for people, others could argue that "eradicate" doesn't mean kill, whatever.

But if we are talking about the problem that cats are being butchered because there are millions of people who are followers of religion A, and they think the words mean exactly what they say, how can you possibly argue that the the words don't actually matter, and religion B *might* be bad in some other fashion?

It is a total non-sequitur. It is probably not true, and even if it were true, it doesn't actually matter to the point being discussed.

Now if someone wanted to talk about the problem of famine in some countries among goats because followers of religion B have decided that only the puppies should get food, then it makes sense to talk about THEIR particular beliefs and how that contributes to THAT particular problem.

[Valmy]

Not the exact same problems.  Similar problems.  Lots of Christians don't seem to accept what we call "liberal" values.  It seems more important to adhere to biblical values, however they may be interpreted, than anything else.  If that means trampling people's right in the dirt, be it as insignificant as the right to watch pornography at home, or more sinisted as affecting equality for people of different sexual orientation or preventing a women to control her own body, or simply waging an incessant war on science when it contradicts the Bible, it seems to me Christianity has a lot of problems.

Yes. This was what I was referring to when I referred to our constant struggle. However it is not that simple is it?

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

I do not know what 'better' means here.

Attacking a religion is simply counter-productive.  Just look at your reaction here, at the slightest mention of what could be a criticism or your religion, and you're as far as I can possibly imagine from a religious fanatic.
Using that technique on devout people is likely to backfire, creating the opposite effect than what we want to achieve.

My reaction was when you started making blanket statements about 'every religion'. I found that obnoxious, I did not take it personally.

[LaCroix]

Many, if not most, simply cannot exist outside of certain cultural contexts.

what cultural contexts?

Local, tribal, traditional ones.

what local, tribal, traditional cultural contexts did nigerians share with europeans to allow them to share religion?

[Valmy]

what local, tribal, traditional cultural contexts did nigerians share with europeans to allow them to share religion?

Christianity and Islam are notable (among a few others) for not being that way.

[LaCroix]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

It's very true.  Getting your head hacked off is much more unpleasant than paying a porn tax or not being able to buy booze on Sunday.

here you're blaming head hacking and porn taxing and booze buying on religion, when it could be the culture at fault

[LaCroix]

what local, tribal, traditional cultural contexts did nigerians share with europeans to allow them to share religion?

Christianity and Islam are notable (among a few others) for not being that way.

without rereading this thread, I'm not sure whether you're essentially saying the religions that survived to modern day and were adopted by different cultures only did so because something inherent in those religions allowed them to be shared by different cultures.

[Valmy]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

It's very true.  Getting your head hacked off is much more unpleasant than paying a porn tax or not being able to buy booze on Sunday.

here you're blaming head hacking and porn taxing and booze buying on religion, when it could be the culture at fault

It is a chicken and egg thing. If the religion specifically demands one tax porn, ban booze, and hack heads as its tenants then that does kind of point to one rather than the other. Of course that came from a culture at some point presumably. Of course religion is a part of culture anyway.

[Valmy]

what local, tribal, traditional cultural contexts did nigerians share with europeans to allow them to share religion?

Christianity and Islam are notable (among a few others) for not being that way.

without rereading this thread, I'm not sure whether you're essentially saying the religions that survived to modern day and were adopted by different cultures only did so because something inherent in those religions allowed them to be shared by different cultures.

No I am not saying that at all. I am saying that religions often were so entwined in a specific culture that it is hard for one to exist without the other. Many religions like this continue to exist AFAIK.

[Admiral Yi]

here you're blaming head hacking and porn taxing and booze buying on religion, when it could be the culture at fault

Such as the American culture that led American-born jihadists to shoot up army bases and gay clubs?  Or the Middle Eastern culture that led Assyrians and Devil worshipers to not hack off heads?

[LaCroix]

here you're blaming head hacking and porn taxing and booze buying on religion, when it could be the culture at fault

Such as the American culture that led American-born jihadists to shoot up army bases and gay clubs?  Or the Middle Eastern culture that led Assyrians and Devil worshipers to not hack off heads?

many individuals exist who reject or deviate from their own culture

[Admiral Yi]

many individuals exist who reject or deviate from their own culture

Certainly.  Given that, how do you come to the conclusion that it "could be culture?"

Or are you taking the position that, outside of the hard sciences, nothing is provable?

[dps]

Again I am not sure what point you are making.

My point was just what I stated. I shall quote it again.

I don't actually think the view on Muslims has changed at all

Because I heard all the same nonsense back then that I am hearing today.

In the context of the 2003 invasion of Iraq anyway. But it is a little complicated as far as how the political dynamics go.

Yes, there was a lot of people saying at the time that Islam is incompatible with democracy.  Though I suppose that you could argue that "democracy" and "Western values" aren't exactly the same thing.

[LaCroix]

many individuals exist who reject or deviate from their own culture

Certainly.  Given that, how do you come to the conclusion that it "could be culture?"

Or are you taking the position that, outside of the hard sciences, nothing is provable?

because your examples are laws of the land, and laws come from culture. a society that interprets a text to mean hack off all heathen heads is a culture that condones such conduct. I don't think a society can freely act in the name of religion if that society doesn't accept that religion. I disagree completely with valmy's "chicken and egg thing," because religion must come after culture.

I can't think of a situation where religion comes before culture. if you handed the bible to a society magically created as a blank slate, it could create a religion, but that religion wouldn't be the same religion as ours. there would be different interpretations, because their freshly minted culture is different than ours.