Western values and Islam are very, very compatible

[Valmy]

I think Bush kept a lid on Muslim hate in his own party.  He took great pains to say we weren't waging war on Islam.  I hope Trump tries to do the same.

I think he has already failed that test. But, I guess to be hopeful, sometimes high office transforms people.

[mongers]

I think Bush kept a lid on Muslim hate in his own party.  He took great pains to say we weren't waging war on Islam.  I hope Trump tries to do the same.

Horses and doors, you arrange them.

[MadImmortalMan]

It's hard to claim your not at war with X when X is constantly claiming to be at war with you. War only takes one party to initiate.

It may have been easier back then when it was just bin Laden/AlQ and they were obviously a small splinter group. Things have changed a bit since then. There are a lot more people with megaphones out there claiming to speak for Islam and also claiming to be at war with the west. Unfortunately, the more ISIS et al make headlines, the more of a wedge they drive between Islam and the rotw, and that drives Muslim populations into their lap. They can't have their Caliphate or whatever until the people support it. Well, the non-gay men anyway.

[Valmy]

It may have been easier back then when it was just bin Laden/AlQ and they were obviously a small splinter group.

Nah. We still had Hamas and Hezbollah and The Muslim Brotherhood around.

[viper37]

The problem is that the contents of the religion also contain a lot of material that makes it so that you can also make a very credible argument that the ISIS view of Islam is as valid, or more valid, than the western liberal interpretation.

You could make that assumption with just about any religion.  Religions evolve to adapt to their cultural surroundings.

So it isn't THAT amazing. We know that Islam *can* be reconciled with liberal values. The problem isn't what is possible anywhere, the problem is what is actual in some particular places.

Same as with Christianity, again.  Witch hunts in Africa are conducted by Christians, mostly.

[Valmy]

You could make that assumption with just about any religion.  Religions evolve to adapt to their cultural surroundings.

Well it sort of depends on the religion. I don't think they are all exactly identical in their relationship to culture. Many, if not most, simply cannot exist outside of certain cultural contexts. So I reject this absurd reductionist statement.

Same as with Christianity, again.  Witch hunts in Africa are conducted by Christians, mostly.

Christianity and Islam are closely related and similar in how they interact with culture, which is probably not surprising given their similar origins. Though Christianity has the convenient quirk of having vague and contradictory texts.

But beyond that again I reject this absurd reductionist argument that all religions are exactly the same and Christianity and Islam have the exact same problems in today's world.

[LaCroix]

Many, if not most, simply cannot exist outside of certain cultural contexts.

what cultural contexts?

[Legbiter]

Islam is a religion of peace, and it has nothing to do with the militarized surveillance state Western nations must construct to survive it.

[Admiral Yi]

Very good to hear.  For a minute there I was a little worried it might not be.

[crazy canuck]

It may have been easier back then when it was just bin Laden/AlQ and they were obviously a small splinter group.

Nah. We still had Hamas and Hezbollah and The Muslim Brotherhood around.

And they contained their activities to the middle east.  Again I am not sure what point you are making.  MiM's comment addresses the reason attitudes toward Muslims shifted in the West.  They went from people to whom we could easily bring democracy if only we could remove the tyrants who were oppressing them, to the enemy.

Of course what that view misses completely is that Muslims are not a homogeneous group.  But that doesn't prevent all the nonsense we hear from Trump and those who support him.

[Valmy]

Again I am not sure what point you are making.

My point was just what I stated. I shall quote it again.

I don't actually think the view on Muslims has changed at all

Because I heard all the same nonsense back then that I am hearing today.

In the context of the 2003 invasion of Iraq anyway. But it is a little complicated as far as how the political dynamics go.

Now I could certainly be wrong, and you can certainly disagree, but I do not understand how you can not be sure about what point I am making. Do I need to keep posting it again and again?

[Berkut]

The problem is that the contents of the religion also contain a lot of material that makes it so that you can also make a very credible argument that the ISIS view of Islam is as valid, or more valid, than the western liberal interpretation.

You could make that assumption with just about any religion.  Religions evolve to adapt to their cultural surroundings.

So it isn't THAT amazing. We know that Islam *can* be reconciled with liberal values. The problem isn't what is possible anywhere, the problem is what is actual in some particular places.

Same as with Christianity, again.  Witch hunts in Africa are conducted by Christians, mostly.

We aren't talking about Christianity though, nor has anyone claimed that Islam is the only religion to ever have these *kinds* of problems.

[Valmy]

Many, if not most, simply cannot exist outside of certain cultural contexts.

what cultural contexts?

Local, tribal, traditional ones.

[viper37]

But beyond that again I reject this absurd reductionist argument that all religions are exactly the same and Christianity and Islam have the exact same problems in today's world.

Not the exact same problems.  Similar problems.  Lots of Christians don't seem to accept what we call "liberal" values.  It seems more important to adhere to biblical values, however they may be interpreted, than anything else.  If that means trampling people's right in the dirt, be it as insignificant as the right to watch pornography at home, or more sinisted as affecting equality for people of different sexual orientation or preventing a women to control her own body, or simply waging an incessant war on science when it contradicts the Bible, it seems to me Christianity has a lot of problems.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

Attacking a religion is simply counter-productive.  Just look at your reaction here, at the slightest mention of what could be a criticism or your religion, and you're as far as I can possibly imagine from a religious fanatic.
Using that technique on devout people is likely to backfire, creating the opposite effect than what we want to achieve.

[Admiral Yi]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't critic some of Islam violent tendancies, it certainly does not mean we can not contradict people who instrumentalize religion, but we can't let it fall into a war of religion where we are somehow better than the other, when it is simply not true.

It's very true.  Getting your head hacked off is much more unpleasant than paying a porn tax or not being able to buy booze on Sunday.