Ireland compensates woman forced to travel to Britain for an abortion

[Berkut]

To be fair Meri had some particularly horrendous pregnancies.

So did my wife. Our first child was lucky to live through his first night, we had a mis-carriage (sorry, SHE had a miscarriage I guess), then Julie nearly died giving birth to my son. Like, literally almost died while I was sitting next to her as she bled out and the surgeon went through the roof in the operating room trying to keep her alive.

Of course, I only know this because she told me so, being a man I was incapable of ever understanding any of it. I just sat there with a stupid grin on my face wondering why nobody wanted to light up a cigar right there in the OR...

[merithyn]

Men, of course, who would never have any idea what toll pregnancy already takes on a person.

Again, a completely ridiculous comment.

men can NEVER have ANY idea? Never? None at all?

We are, because we are men, incapable of simple observation and learning from our senses? We, because we are men, are incapable of empathy with our wives and lovers?

And pregnancy NEVER has ANY effect on men at all? We NEVER have ANY say of any kind in that life?

I thought Meri is demanding that we DO NOT consider women to just be incubators, but apparently being an incubator is the complete and total experience that 100% informs everything that is *possible* to know about pregnancy and it "toll", such that men are and must be completely ignorant of it.

This is all ridiculous of course. It is taking the argument from one absolutely idiotic extreme straight to the other. And again, it just empowers the one extreme to paint everyone not in their extreme to be in the other extreme. This is, right here, a *perfect* example of how positional polarization happens.

You either inhabit MY extreme, or by definition you inhabit the other, because the structure of the debate is setup so that there is no possible middle ground. Because "Men, of course, who would never have any idea...."

I'm sorry. Did I do that wrong again? Oh dear me. Let me rephrase that in a more pleasing manner for you.

Nope, sorry, I can't.

No, Berk, you can't. Anymore than I have any idea what it's like to physically be a man. I can presume, I can empathize, I can even take some pretty good guesses having raised three boys, but nope. No idea what it's really like to be a man. Physically, you are alien to me.

And while you may think you understand, there are a million little things about being pregnant that we just don't share. They just are. We deal with them. So to have two men who've never had to give up so much as a candy bar for a pregnancy tell me that I should pretty much turn my body over to the state while I'm carrying a child, it was a bit rich.

[Valmy]

No, Berk, you can't. Anymore than I have any idea what it's like to physically be a man.

To be fair to him though non of us are saying anybody should be forced to go through a pregnancy. We are all for early term abortions or birth control. None of us are for forcing somebody to care for a child they erm...incubated...if they do not want to.

I will say you take a wildly anarchistic and libertarian view on this topic that goes farther than I would...but plenty of people have wildly anarchistic and libertarian views.

[merithyn]

To be fair Meri had some particularly horrendous pregnancies.

So did my wife. Our first child was lucky to live through his first night, we had a mis-carriage (sorry, SHE had a miscarriage I guess), then Julie nearly died giving birth to my son. Like, literally almost died while I was sitting next to her as she bled out and the surgeon went through the roof in the operating room trying to keep her alive.

Of course, I only know this because she told me so, being a man I was incapable of ever understanding any of it. I just sat there with a stupid grin on my face wondering why nobody wanted to light up a cigar right there in the OR...

I'm sorry, Berk. I didn't know that. And of course you went through all of that with her. There's no question of any of that, and that it hurt you.

But it's not the same as being the one in the situation. You worried for her and your children, but the toll on her was greater. You are a good husband and father, so that miscarriage probably hurt like hell (my ex can't say the same), but do you doubt that it affected her differently? Do you doubt that any of that affected her differently?

That's my point. Not that you don't care or that it doesn't matter to you. Only that you can't fully understand how it affects us. OUR lives are put in danger, not our spouse's. OUR worlds are turned upside down internally and externally. It's not just having to deal with someone else's issues. This isn't watching someone you love suffer. This is suffering. And there is a massive difference and gives a very different perspective on the matter.

[Berkut]

Meri apparently is telling me that my opinions about her opinions are not interesting to her, since they challenge her views and tone. Shrug. Ok. As I said, noted. I will afford her views with rather less weight in the future, since apparently discussion is not her goal here, she just wants to vent and have people agree with her, like Raz or siege. Which is fine, that is what some people want out of languish, but it isn't what keeps me posting.

Different drummers and all that.

Wow. Okay.

You're not arguing about my points, but rather how I share them.

I am arguing both - I am saying that some of your points, things like men never having any understanding, or that a fetus is a parasite, are simply not defensible or reasonable, and focusing on such not true and polarizing points damages your entire position.

That's not a debate, Berk. 

Of course it is. Nothing I am saying is not challengeable. You can argue that in fact it is perfectly reasonable to consider a fetus on the verge of birth as nothing more than a parasite, and you HAVE argued that men in fact can have no real opinion on any of this because we can NEVER have ANY understanding of it anyway.

Those are not particularly defensible responses, IMO, but there is nothing about my responses to your positions that make them impossible to attack. Just hard, because your positions that I've objected to are rather ridiculous.

You've made it clear that you disagree with my stance and why. I disagree with yours. Okay, fine. Not a big deal. As I stated, I don't expect people to change their mind on this. I presented my opinion, my reasons for my opinion, and listened to yours. That I don't really feel a need to be told that my style of presentation isn't to your liking. I assure you that there are any number of times where your style of presentation and debate isn't to my liking, either. But I don't feel a need to condescendingly coach you on how to make yourself more pleasing to me.

If you feel I am saying things that are both not accurate, and damaging to my own argument, then I more than invite you to tell me so, and convince me that my approach is counter productive.

And I expect, that in a given discussion, if I engage only with those who agree with me, while giving condescending sarcastic remarks to those that do not, then I won't be surprised if people conclude that I am not much interested in actual discussion,  but just want to vent and be validated. Which, as I said, is fine. That is what some people want out of a place like Languish.

In either case, I won't get all faux offended at being "condescended" to. That dog won't hunt, I don't treat you any differently than I treat anyone else on Languish.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I tried to be specific about this, but maybe I failed. I consider a fetus "life". I do not, however, consider it independent life until it is no longer alive because its mother is alive. Which is different than "viable life outside the womb", because until it is actually outside the womb, it's not an independent life.

I think we at least agree with the biology, if not the broader terminology. I'd argue an infant isn't "independent life" either, most species infants will certainly die if abandoned, for example.

You misunderstand. I actually believe that a fetus is a person the moment that it can survive outside the mother. I don't, however, believe that the fetus has the same rights as the mother until it actually *is* out of the mother.

Alright, I didn't correctly state your view--but that's largely because you had indicated in plain wording that restrictions on abortion are just an "appeasement" and went on to say they violate women's rights. But if you're saying a woman should be able to abort a fetus a week before the due date "because she feels like it" (not for medical situations), then I'd argue you're not acknowledging the fetus has any rights. If you are against that sort of abortion, then you're in agreement with abortion restrictions which you had previously said you disagreed with.

FWIW, I don't think the fetus has the same rights as the mother even when it's born. Not for a good 18, heck even 21 years.

I don't think that my view will ever be the majority view in the United States. Nor do I think that it's my job to convince people that I'm right. What I want is for people to consider women to be more important than as simply an incubator. I'll consider that a win right now.

I certainly agree it isn't your job to convince anyone of anything, if you don't choose to do so. But I think you're basically poisoning the well by assuming the mainstream position on abortion just views women as incubators. You're presuming a hell of a lot about a lot of people with that attitude, with little basis upon which to rest that presumption.

[garbon]

Meh.  She doesn't care.  It's clearly she views it only through the lens of women's rights and power.  Consequences be damned.

How dare she. She really should learn how to moderate her point of view so it will be palatable to...err...well, I can't exactly think why she needs to do that.

Presumably because she wants to actually convince people.

If she wants to just feel offended and worked up over being oppressed, she can go on arguing that a fetus is a parasite, and not agreeing with that is arguing that women have no rights.

But who is she trying to 'convince' Languish? I don't think Meri is a reproductive rights activist or a politician.

Noe of us are, so presuambly we are debating things on Languish that we find meaningful and relevant to one another.

If we are all just hear to listen to ourselves talk, then fine. But I certainly change my views on things in part based on what people on Languish convince me of, and I presume that some others do as well. To the extent that I find others opinions interesting and even worthy of consideration when it comes to forming my own views, *their* willingness to be convinced enters into that metric as well. I engage in discussion in good faith, and my interest in others point of views is largely dependent on their doing the same.

Meri apparently is telling me that my opinions about her opinions are not interesting to her, since they challenge her views and tone. Shrug. Ok. As I said, noted. I will afford her views with rather less weight in the future, since apparently discussion is not her goal here, she just wants to vent and have people agree with her, like Raz or siege. Which is fine, that is what some people want out of languish, but it isn't what keeps me posting.

Different drummers and all that.

I think people can post on Languish for different reasons and that's okay.

I think that is exactly what I just said...

But I have very little interest in being your dragon for you to play white knight to, and Meri deserves more respect than being cast as your damsel in distress.

Sure, you said it in a dismissive tone but okay same thing.

Also, puhleeze. I'm a black knight if anything.

[merithyn]

To be fair to him though non of us are saying anybody should be forced to go through a pregnancy. We are all for early term abortions or birth control. None of us are for forcing somebody to care for a child they erm...incubated...if they do not want to.

I will say you take a wildly anarchistic and libertarian view on this topic that goes farther than I would...but plenty of people have wildly anarchistic and libertarian views.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that abortion should be illegal. I wasn't arguing that abortion should be legal, really, either. I think the general consensus is that it should be. How it should be is an area of contention far more so than whether it should be.

My argument is one of treatment of women in the whole process. It's an argument that I'm not going to win. Definitely not here, and probably not many places. And yes, it's definitely a libertarian view on the subject. I have many libertarian views on things, in particular when it comes to personal rights. But at least the conversation was had. At least the perspective was presented - however unpleasingly done. It's not often that anyone even addresses the idea much less debates it, so I'll consider that a win.

[Valmy]

My argument is one of treatment of women in the whole process. It's an argument that I'm not going to win.

Is it? They have the majority vote. They have the power to completely decide this issue (and, frankly, every issue) regardless of what we think about it.

[Berkut]

To be fair Meri had some particularly horrendous pregnancies.

So did my wife. Our first child was lucky to live through his first night, we had a mis-carriage (sorry, SHE had a miscarriage I guess), then Julie nearly died giving birth to my son. Like, literally almost died while I was sitting next to her as she bled out and the surgeon went through the roof in the operating room trying to keep her alive.

Of course, I only know this because she told me so, being a man I was incapable of ever understanding any of it. I just sat there with a stupid grin on my face wondering why nobody wanted to light up a cigar right there in the OR...

I'm sorry, Berk. I didn't know that. And of course you went through all of that with her. There's no question of any of that, and that it hurt you.

But it's not the same as being the one in the situation. You worried for her and your children, but the toll on her was greater. You are a good husband and father, so that miscarriage probably hurt like hell (my ex can't say the same), but do you doubt that it affected her differently? Do you doubt that any of that affected her differently?

That's my point. Not that you don't care or that it doesn't matter to you. Only that you can't fully understand how it affects us. OUR lives are put in danger, not our spouse's. OUR worlds are turned upside down internally and externally. It's not just having to deal with someone else's issues. This isn't watching someone you love suffer. This is suffering. And there is a massive difference and gives a very different perspective on the matter.

Different isn't the question though.

I am not arguing against your claim that it is different. It is of course different. Nor can I even pretend to completely understand he pain. Having a life inside you has to be a profoundly defining experience.

I am arguing against your claim that "Men, of course, who would never have any idea what toll pregnancy already takes on a person."

That is not a claim that they cannot fully understand, it is a claim that they HAVE NO IDEA.

Which comes to the crux of our entire disagreement throughout this thread. On the basics, we completely agree.

What I object to, and my objections is not an attempt to condescend, is the argument, which I see as an argument fundamentally for MY SIDE, is actually harmful to our shared position. It is like being in favor of equal rights for blacks, and having someone stand up and say that a good way of addressing the imbalance of power might be to shoot some white cops, and see how they like it...

Now, I may not be able to fully understand what it means to be black in America, but i am quite capable of understanding how radicalizing positions actually results in harm to a cause. I don't mean this theoretically either - this is something that is actually happening, and has happened, and will continue to happen within the debate about abortion and women's reproductive rights in America.

We are both proxies for a larger ongoing fight.

[merithyn]

I think we at least agree with the biology, if not the broader terminology. I'd argue an infant isn't "independent life" either, most species infants will certainly die if abandoned, for example.

No, it's rather specific. If the mother dies, the child dies if it's still inside her. If it's out, others can take on the task of caring for it.

Alright, I didn't correctly state your view--but that's largely because you had indicated in plain wording that restrictions on abortion are just an "appeasement" and went on to say they violate women's rights. But if you're saying a woman should be able to abort a fetus a week before the due date "because she feels like it" (not for medical situations), then I'd argue you're not acknowledging the fetus has any rights. If you are against that sort of abortion, then you're in agreement with abortion restrictions which you had previously said you disagreed with.

There are two things at play here. What I believe to be true, and what I believe should be legislated. 

I do have serious issues with a woman having an abortion "just because" once the fetus is viable. I think that's morally reprehensible and outside my ken. I honestly struggle with the idea that a woman would have an abortion past 18 weeks, as I feel that it is too close to - using your terms - personhood for my liking.

At the same time, I believe that a fetus should not have any rights until it is an independent life. As such, there should be no laws that prevent the above from happening.

I certainly agree it isn't your job to convince anyone of anything, if you don't choose to do so. But I think you're basically poisoning the well by assuming the mainstream position on abortion just views women as incubators. You're presuming a hell of a lot about a lot of people with that attitude, with little basis upon which to rest that presumption.

Fair enough. It's been my experience that anti-Choice people care primarily about controlling the woman than caring for the child, but I live in a fairly conservative section of the country. I concede that my perspective might be skewed. But to claim that few feel that way is also underselling them. I assure you that there are a large swatch of the population who do care more about punishing the woman for having had sex than for caring for the child.

[merithyn]

My argument is one of treatment of women in the whole process. It's an argument that I'm not going to win.

Is it? They have the majority vote. They have the power to completely decide this issue (and, frankly, every issue) regardless of what we think about it.

Women do not vote as a block. That was just proven with this election. In fact, women tend to be their own worst enemies when it comes to things like this.

[merithyn]

Different isn't the question though.

I am not arguing against your claim that it is different. It is of course different. Nor can I even pretend to completely understand he pain. Having a life inside you has to be a profoundly defining experience.

I am arguing against your claim that "Men, of course, who would never have any idea what toll pregnancy already takes on a person."

That is not a claim that they cannot fully understand, it is a claim that they HAVE NO IDEA.

Which comes to the crux of our entire disagreement throughout this thread. On the basics, we completely agree.

What I object to, and my objections is not an attempt to condescend, is the argument, which I see as an argument fundamentally for MY SIDE, is actually harmful to our shared position. It is like being in favor of equal rights for blacks, and having someone stand up and say that a good way of addressing the imbalance of power might be to shoot some white cops, and see how they like it...

Now, I may not be able to fully understand what it means to be black in America, but i am quite capable of understanding how radicalizing positions actually results in harm to a cause. I don't mean this theoretically either - this is something that is actually happening, and has happened, and will continue to happen within the debate about abortion and women's reproductive rights in America.

We are both proxies for a larger ongoing fight.

That's fair. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?

[Valmy]

Women do not vote as a block. That was just proven with this election. In fact, women tend to be their own worst enemies when it comes to things like this.

To be fair most voting demographics are.

[grumbler]

Noted.

On this topic, I have found Meri as resistant to logic as Raz is to most things.  Engaging fanatics on the topic of fanaticism is a waste of lifespan.