Ireland compensates woman forced to travel to Britain for an abortion

[Razgovory]

Pregnancy was actually invented in the 1920's for the express purpose of suppressing women.  Before that, children were just found under leaves of cabbage or delivered via shorebirds.

Don't you have somewhere to be?

Not for 11 hours.  Do you believe a person's right to their body is absolute?

[merithyn]

Not for 11 hours.  Do you believe a person's right to their body is absolute?

I'm sure that there are exceptions, but I do believe that in general, yes, a person's bodily autonomy is sacrosanct.

[Razgovory]

Not for 11 hours.  Do you believe a person's right to their body is absolute?

I'm sure that there are exceptions, but I do believe that in general, yes, a person's bodily autonomy is sacrosanct.

What exceptions?

[merithyn]

I can't think of any, but I assume that this is a game of "gotcha'" and that you'll tell me something that should be an exception. Easier to just let you do that then try to think of them on my own.

[Valmy]

I was thinking that in the old days Hortlund would be here Hortlunding this thread up. It would be about 50 pages by now.

But fortunately we still have Raz!

[merithyn]

I was thinking that in the old days Hortlund would be here Hortlunding this thread up. It would be about 50 pages by now.

But fortunately we still have Raz!

If Hortlund were here, I would have stepped out well before this point. Raz is essentially harmless.

[Razgovory]

I can't think of any, but I assume that this is a game of "gotcha'" and that you'll tell me something that should be an exception. Easier to just let you do that then try to think of them on my own.

Any principle that can easily be easily abused tremendous evil is not a good principle.  And I can think of a lot of evil.

[merithyn]

I can't think of any, but I assume that this is a game of "gotcha'" and that you'll tell me something that should be an exception. Easier to just let you do that then try to think of them on my own.

Any principle that can easily be easily abused tremendous evil is not a good principle.  And I can think of a lot of evil.

Right.

[Berkut]

And his entire point was their rarity is completely beside the point as to whether or not a law should be made about them.

My point is that it's adding morality and laws to a topic where they shouldn't be. Either a woman has the right to decide for herself how she treats her body or she doesn't.

That is, frankly, bullshit.

Rights are not absolute. There is a general right that people have a right to do as they please with their bodies of course, but it, like all rights, is limited when that right comes into conflict with the rights of other humans, or even with the reasonable norms of society.

You don't have the right to do anything you like with your body, so this, *again* couching of the terms of the debate in absolutes like "I either have the right to kill my baby up to the instant the umbilical is cut or you are saying women are second class citizens without rights at all" type of argument is counter productive to your own cause.

[Berkut]

Bisquick is so smart.  I agree 100% with that last post.

One additional definition of personhood which appeals to me is the beginning of electrical activity in the brain.  Can't remember when it is, but it's either at the end of the 1st or the 2nd trimester.

Yep, that pretty well encapsulated my views on abortion as well.

I think the more relevant distinction for fetal protection is when its brain wave patterns become noticeably and distinctly human, when we can determine that this being is having thought patterns that clearly distinguish it from animal level intelligence and awareness, and hence can suffer greater than animal level of harm.

[Berkut]

Meri, here is how to make your argument without creating a stereotype for people like Price to hang their idiocy on:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/opinions/trump-hhs-birth-control-filipovic-opinion/index.html

These things -- good health, strong relationships, healthier children, pleasurable experiences -- should be on offer for all women, not just those who can afford to plan their pregnancies. But the future of women's health under President Trump, and HHS Secretary Price, looks grim: Price's plan turns sex for pleasure into a luxury item and puts our health at risk. And it sends women a clear message: That partaking in a full range of human enjoyment and physical experience isn't for us, and that we exist instead to reproduce.
Should we be surprised? Trump's own behavior implies our role as women is to be professional beauties he can ogle and rate onstage, or simply bodies he can grab if he feels like it. Women's sovereignty over our own bodies, let alone our pleasure, has never seemed to matter to Trump, personally, professionally or politically. Price's nomination is just one peek at what Trump's notorious misogyny will look like when it's translated into policy.

[merithyn]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

[Valmy]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

I think you might be being sarcastic here

[merithyn]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

I think you might be being sarcastic here

[Razgovory]

Meh.  She doesn't care.  It's clearly she views it only through the lens of women's rights and power.  Consequences be damned.