What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Razgovory]

I wonder if Grumbler's feelings about Muslims is similar to Otto's.

[Oexmelin]

Huh? The damage to nature is being done from over-population and economic activity not mass murder. Maybe you do not understand how this works?

There is no need to be flippant. You seem to presume that cultures are just the expressions of contemporary laws, rules, norms, and artistic endeavors fostered by the countries associated with "the West". It is apparent that Solmyr rather associates the long history of capitalism with "the West". It's an argument that champions of "Western Civilization" once subscribed to themselves, and it used to be infused with all the triumphalism you can imagine. But it is also quite possible, with the same arguments, to trace the very real lineages of 19th century rival Nation-State and total war, dependency on growth, over-exploitation of resources to those same roots of "Western Civilization". Whether or not this is a fair characterization is not as self-evident as you seem to make it, and a lot of the argument relies on whether or not capitalism is inherently "Western", counterfactual history as to whether it would have developed from the Muslim world, or imperial China, or even if capitalism is the expression of a culture. It can be an interesting debate. That is, unless we prefer to stick to accusing others of being morons or trolls.

[Oexmelin]

I just didn't get how the natural damage was done 'on its way' to mass murder. I mean the damage is being done by doing things that until fairly recently were considered good things (well...ok still are). Creating economic activity and helping humans not die from child birth and disease. But birth rates are going down and technological priorities are shifting. We will see how it turns out.

As an addendum to my point above. The argument is that these wonderful things have always been the amazing, intended results of a specific political economy, whereas the terrible events, the wars, the genocides, the ecological devastation, have always been the unfortunate, unintended, tangential events that stood outside economic infrastructure, and could be squarely ascribed to the inexplicable folly of man. The interesting thought experiment is considering how we would see things if the terrible things were the intended results, and the wonderful things, the unintended consequences stemming from the inexplicable altruism of man. Or, if both these things were inscribed at the heart of that specific political economy.

[Solmyr]

Oexmelin gets it. Not that I'm saying other cultures are great, but it's definitely silly to consider the modern Western civilization as some kind of paragon of virtue and height of development, like Otto is doing. As for mass deaths, colonialism/WW1/WW2 combined would likely set the record all by themselves. Incidentally, much of the damage to the environment currently being done in third world countries is a result of colonialist legacy.

[Tamas]

Oexmelin gets it. Not that I'm saying other cultures are great, but it's definitely silly to consider the modern Western civilization as some kind of paragon of virtue and height of development

To be NOT considered the height of development, you'd have to show another civilisation that's on a higher level of development.

And when it comes to either pure economics, level of technology, or politics, including and most importantly the rights of the individual, the West is high above everyone else.

And yes maybe it wasn't this above and beyond through all of history, but it has been breaking away for quite a while now, and if the ROTW is keeping up, it's only because they are learning from the West.

[Tamas]

much of the damage to the environment currently being done in third world countries is a result of colonialist legacy.

Are you claiming there has been no industrial development in former colonies since the 50s-60s?

[Tamas]

In terms of world wars etc. I'd like to point out that "other cultures" simply lacked the industrial power and level of technology to replicate the West's "achievement".

I haven't heard of any third world shithole that opposes using a Kalashnikov instead of a flintlock musket, due to civilisational concerns on mass murder, or refraining from ethnic cleansing because they cannot stomach it.

[Syt]

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-voters-say-men-are-discriminated-against-more-gays-minorities-n921801

Trump voters say men are discriminated against more than gays, minorities

Nearly half of Trump voters said men face either "a great deal" or "a fair amount" of discrimination in America today.

People who voted for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election believe men are discriminated against more than LGBTQ people, women and most ethnic minorities, according to a new poll conducted by YouGov and The Economist.

The survey asked 1,500 adults across the U.S. a series of questions on topics ranging from politics to baseball from Oct. 14 to Oct. 16. One question asked, "How much discrimination do the following people face in America today?" Respondents were then presented with a list of different demographic groups and could choose "none at all," "not much," a fair amount" or "a great deal."

Forty-nine percent of Trump voters surveyed said men face either "a great deal" (18 percent) or "a fair amount" (31 percent) of discrimination in America today. By contrast, this same group found 41 percent of LGBTQ people, 30 percent of women, 38 percent of African-Americans and 42 percent of Mexican-Americans faced either "a great deal" or a "fair amount" of discrimination.

Of those who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, only 11 percent said men face discrimination in the U.S. The vast majority of Clinton voters said LGBTQ people (92 percent), Arab-Americans (91 percent), African-Americans (90 percent), Mexican-Americans (90 percent), women (88 percent), Muslims (95 percent) and immigrants (92) face either "a great deal" or "a fair amount" of discrimination.

In reaction to the responses from Trump voters regarding discrimination, Zeke Stokes, the vice president of programs at GLAAD, a nationwide LGBTQ advocacy group, took aim at the president.

"Since taking office, President Trump has been the bully-in-chief, with egregious attacks including ongoing efforts to ban transgender soldiers from openly serving in the military and revoking nondiscrimination protections for transgender youths at school."

Transgender people are particularly susceptible to discrimination, harassment and violence, according to the National Center for Transgender Equality. The organization's U.S. Transgender Survey, released in December 2016, found 46 percent of transgender respondents were verbally harassed in the previous year due to their gender identity, and 10 percent were physically attacked during that time period.

In response to the survey results, released Wednesday, Peter Boykin, founder of Gays for Trump and a Republican candidate for the North Carolina House of Representatives, said, "I think we are all being discriminated by each other."

However, Boykin did share a sentiment that appeared to shine through among the Trump voters surveyed.

"Right now, the market is more open for people to be of color or gay," he said. "The tables now have turned where it's now hurtful to your personal prosperity to be a plain, cisgender white male."

The YouGov/Economist survey results coincide with Spirit Day, which is celebrated on the third Thursday in October. During the annual campaign, LGBTQ allies "go purple" in support of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer youth and against bullying. According to the latest data from LGBTQ youth advocacy group GLSEN, 85 percent of LGBTQ students report being verbally harassed and 58 percent said they feel unsafe at school because of their sexual orientation.

[grumbler]

Syria and the Netherlands have about the same population.  Which "damaged (likely irreparably) the most nature ever"?

Actually, give the Dutch East Indies oil production, I think the Netherlands might win.

Why?  What was so damaging about DEI oil production?

[grumbler]

Oexmelin gets it. Not that I'm saying other cultures are great, but it's definitely silly to consider the modern Western civilization as some kind of paragon of virtue and height of development, like Otto is doing. As for mass deaths, colonialism/WW1/WW2 combined would likely set the record all by themselves. Incidentally, much of the damage to the environment currently being done in third world countries is a result of colonialist legacy.

Trollmyr doesn't get it.    One can argue about whether Western culture represents the current height of developments like personal rights and liberty, rule of law, representative government, etc without tossing in strawman arguments like "it's definitely silly to consider the modern Western civilization as some kind of paragon of virtue."  No one is claiming anything of the sort.  As for mass deaths,  the Mongol's (accidental) introduction of the Black Death to China, the Middle East, and Europe would likely set the per-capita record all by itself.  Incidentally, over-use of resources (and damage to the environment) is a feature of every culture ever. 

[Maladict]

Syria and the Netherlands have about the same population.  Which "damaged (likely irreparably) the most nature ever"?

What are we talking about here? Absolute volume of toxic materials? Areas polluted, total area or percentage? Activities by Dutch/Syrian companies and citizens abroad?

[jimmy olsen]

Well, the Dutch have reclaimed a lot of land from the sea, so it would have to be them...

although Syria and much of the fertile crescent was quite lush before the rise of civilization and it's current desertification is to a large extent humanities fault.

[Tamas]

Well, the Dutch have reclaimed a lot of land from the sea, so it would have to be them...

although Syria and much of the fertile crescent was quite lush before the rise of civilization and it's current desertification is to a large extent humanities fault.

Nooo Tim, it's colonialism that ruined Syria. Get up to date on stuff.

[The Brain]

Well, the Dutch have reclaimed a lot of land from the sea, so it would have to be them...

although Syria and much of the fertile crescent was quite lush before the rise of civilization and it's current desertification is to a large extent humanities fault.

Indeed. Science and technology is where it's at.

[Berkut]

Incidentally, much of the damage to the environment currently being done in third world countries is a result of colonialist legacy.

This, right here, is why the right wins.

Colonialist legacy. What a crock of shit.